for advanced 'Solution Focused Therapists' who already know how to do SF Therapy 'briefly' in hours, but not yet 'ultra shortly' in minutes

On the 18th of June Dr. Paul Koeck, MD interviewed his friend Dr. Luc Isebaert, MD to "Crack the code" of his wizard-like magic ultra short therapy session.

Steve De Shazer told Paul once during a dinner in San Francisco: "Luc applies all the Solution Focused principles .... and then he suddenly does his 'magical trick' ... and it works"

For years Paul was intrigued how his friend and mentor Luc was doing his 'magical trick. He observed Luc doing it dozens of times successfully in little minutes of time, either during Luc's training sessions in demonstrations to his students, either in real life when someone in a casual conversation inserted a problem situation where he or she was stuck. Early June, Paul called Luc if he was interested to set up a joint interview aiming at "cracking the code" of how Dr. Luc Isebaert does his 'magical trick', as Steve would say ... discovering Luc's critical success factors.

Viktor Frankl's grandson, my friend Alex Vesely, commented after viewing this interview: "Good interview. Kind of connects Viktor Frankl and Milton Erickson..."

Dr. Paul Koeck Interviewed Dr. Luc Isebaert from the perspective of the already trained solution focused therapists who now wants to learn the 'advanced skill' of doing a therapy session ultra briefly, because often physicians only have 5 minutes to see their patient and still want to be of great help.

Luc Isebaert, MD and Paul Koeck, MD, will co-present this as a primeur at a workshop at the EBTA (European Brief Therapy Conference) in Sofia on Saturday 22 september 2018 at 15:30 - 16:30 in Royal 1 Hall. Read more @ https:// ebtaconference2018sofia. org /programa/

The interview was done a first time in Luc's mother tongue Dutch and in the afternoon replayed in English on sunday June 18th 2018:

Ultra-short therapy demystified - in English, Part 1 (45'):



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Hi.

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Hi Paul.Hello.

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So for years, some of the students already have seen

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you do demonstrations of this ultra brief psychotherapy.

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Sometimes we were even timing you and you could

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do a therapy session in less than five minutes,

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some seconds from the five minutes away.

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Sometimes it was like ten or 15

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minutes, but a lot of them were

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very short despite have been extremely effective.

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And I would like to find out how you do that.

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So if you can describe at the macroscopic level what

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you think you are doing, then afterwards we will try

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to see if there are some extra layers of what

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you're doing in reality with the patients. Okay.

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In fact, when I do this, there's also brief therapy.

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There's three phases in it.

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However, there's three phases in it.

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In fact, these three phases are the same

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phases I do in longer and normal therapy

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session for half an hour, 45 minutes.

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It is the same.

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Much shorter and more compressed.

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First phase is making the alliance,

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establishing the alliance and joining the

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client, establishing the alliance.

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First phase.

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This phase goes through until the end of the therapy.

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But I start with that.

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And that is being interested by

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being interested and showing myself interested

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in the complaints of the client.

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What do they complain of?

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Connect with their complaints.

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Connect with their complaints.

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First phase, second phase is being helpful trying to formulate for

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himself what would be a good life for him, what

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would be a good relationship with a wife or husband,

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what would be a good relationship with the children, what

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kind of father or mother they want to be, what kind of

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child for their parents, what kind of friends, what kind

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of colleague, and so on. Good life.

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You connect to the existential level from

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the existential perspective, as you say.

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And what do they have now already for

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skills, for competencies, for resources that will help

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them to achieve this good life for them?

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In the second stage, there are two major ingredients.

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What is a good life and what do

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they have as skills and competencies to achieve?

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And the surveys are the last thing that's giving

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a homework task, which is almost always an observation

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task, because there's a little resistance to observation tasks,

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an action task, they often don't do it.

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They do it not enough for it

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to be effective as an observation task.

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When I give an action task, I try

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to package it as an observation task again.

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So now more in the detail of

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what you're doing, the three stages.

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And can you give a clue of if it's five

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minutes altogether, how many minutes on each of the stages?

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Yeah.

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The last stage is in generally the shortest.

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That takes little more than a minute given

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the task because it has been prepared already.

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And the first stage, it depends.

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You have clients who have mainly come.

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They are so deep down or so

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anxious that they have many complaint.

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They first must complain who also want to explain

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what they are suffering from. But they are already

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from the beginning want to be helped or to

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know what they can do and so on.

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So they already help me or help me to

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tell me what I can do to help myself.

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They're already in this mode.

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In that case, the first complaining face can

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be a little short or whereas the first

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you have to give them a little more.

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But that doesn't matter because even from

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the first minute, when they start describing

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their complaints, what they are suffering from.

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Here I already inject something

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of inquiring into the skills.

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Let's say someone is depressed very rapidly.

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They start saying that I can't concentrate anymore

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and I feel sad and blah, blah, blah.

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And very rapidly I say, can you tell me whether

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last week or in 14 days, what was

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the worst moment to the worst or the worst day,

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the worst moment that you have had?

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Tell me, oh, that was three days ago.

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And then they start describing and

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they start asking for details.

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I asked for details immediately

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in the first minutes already.

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So you don't jump to the solution? No.

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Often in this first minute I do as I

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suppose that it's even worse than it is. Yeah.

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I have such trouble getting out of my

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getting out of my bed in the morning.

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Sometimes it's before 10 or 11 am I can't bring myself

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to get out of the bed.

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Sometimes even it's 10 or 11 am you

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can still get out of the bed.

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Half an hour later or an hour later you feel

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so tired or that you go back to your bed.

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Not bad.

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So I invite them to teleport the limits of

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complaints of their symptoms, which is already very limited,

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which is already a skill that they show. Yeah.

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I would like to zoom in.

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Now what exactly do you do?

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What questions do you ask?

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What's the procedure in the three station?

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First question when they see them for the first time,

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the first question is how can I help you?

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How can I help you?

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How can I help you?

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People come to be helped and that's why they

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come and that's what they expect from me.

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So that's what I ask. At least in almost two

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minutes this question will have been transformed into how

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can I help you to help yourself? Okay.

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So the first opening is how can I help you?

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How can I help you?

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And slowly after 1 minute already it starts being

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how can I help you to help yourself?

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How do you guide this transformation? Yeah.

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Well, for instance, the woman says it's often

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done eleven before I can get up here.

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Do you stay up after that or does

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it happen that you go to bed again?

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That I don't do.

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So what do we do?

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How do you manage not to go to bed?

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How do you manage not to go to bed again? The word 'manage'.

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I don't know.

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For instance, some people do when they get up,

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they splash a little water onto their face

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so to wake up.

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Yes, I do that.

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So you might insert some examples. Yeah.

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Will it be that or will it be that if she

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says, no, I don't do that, what else do you do?

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I don't stay upstairs, I go downstairs

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and I put the coffee machine on.

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Oh, that's all we do.

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So you open with questions and then you elicit answers.

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And when there are answers, either you come

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with another question or you might use small

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examples to make them more confused. Yeah.

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If answers are not for examples, when they reply to

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your questions, what do you do with their words?

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How do you react on their answers?

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All answers are good.

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I extract the goods from it. Okay.

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If the woman would have said, I go back to yes, it happens that before eleven

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I go back to my bed.

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Obviously that's not a very good answer,

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but it's a good answer for me.

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Oh, you allow yourself to go back to your

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bed already because you feel so tired that you

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allow yourself to go to a bad deal.

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Well, you care for yourself.

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And how long do you stay in bed then?

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Mostly not more than half an hour.

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Now I have my work to do.

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Yes, you are.

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So having your work to do motivates you

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to get up again after half an hour.

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You're a courageous person. Yeah. Okay.

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So now you extract.

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So at the impression you're doing two things.

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One is extracting the elements that you

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want to emphasize, but at the same

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time, you are building this connection still.

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And there there must be some reading and pacing.

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How do you build this connection?

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I observed in the first example that you gave

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that you are like recently repeating the words. Yes.

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There's an echoing echo technique technique.

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I use that very much because it has several advantages.

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First of all is I don't have

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to think, what shall I say now?

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Copy the word so I can think synthetically.

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The second advantage is that I

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speak the language of the client.

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If I repeat that complaint, I show

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them that I have understood that complaints

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that I have been listening well.

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So they feel understood.

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If I repeat something that they don't so

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skill, then I reinforce that skill because they

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said it and I repeat it.

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And when I repeat it in their

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mind, they repeat it with me.

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So they tell it twice to themselves.

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They have done that.

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They have limited this.

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And I didn't go back to bed, for instance,

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or I caught up at half hour later because

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I had matures to do they repeat that?

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This resource.

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They repeat it to themselves again, too.

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So in the very beginning, you are

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repeating eventually even the problem sequences.

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And then it seems like you're moving towards a shift

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or the flow of moving towards what was the worst

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day you have had.They have described that in a

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few details, then I would ask, for instance, okay, now

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tell me that was the worst.

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So tell me about another day where it's not that

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bad because all those days are not that bad.

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A day where it wasn't that bad.

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And then they generally will sometimes they teleported

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where it was almost as bad, but generally

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they will speak about the day.

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Well, it was really not so bad.

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So they'll tell about that.

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And how did you do that?

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So that time you got up at nine, how did you do that?

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How did you manage to get out of that night?

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How did you manage to do that?

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While I washed my face and brushed

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my teeth left out of your back.

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And already you wash your face

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and you brush your teeth?

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Yes, absolutely.

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Here you repeat, could you

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insert a time predicate already?

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And I wonder it's maybe at the same

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time a kind of hypnotic suggestion already.

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And at the same time you're making a

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timeframe distinction, like, wow, you are so fast. So.

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Absolutely.

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So there I'm getting them to tell about their skills.

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This is the end of the first stage

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where you transition to the yeah, there's a

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transition from the first stage to the second.

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And we're still with the complaints.

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But I put the emphasis on the skills already. Yeah.

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So I go on to the second stage.

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And in the very beginning of the second stage, I

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say, okay, so it must be really bad for you.

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It must be really difficult for you.

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You must be suffering a lot there.

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Tell me, let's say that we got

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to do a good work together.

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And I don't know, in three months or in six

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months or whatever the time you need for that one

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day you say to yourself, if my wife went alone

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like this, that would be fine with me. Yeah.

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It's not having all earth, but that's all I need.

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But if my life goes on like

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that, what would be different from now?

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Instead of asking for the miracle, you

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ask, not perfect, but okay, good enough.

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Yeah, good enough. That's it.

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If my life would be good enough,

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what would be different from now?

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Okay.

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They start describing what is a good life for them.

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So there you start to build the solution picture.

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The solution picture. Yeah, absolutely.

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To have a good solution picture.

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So they describe what is a good life for them.

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And I want a broad enough picture.It doesn't take long.

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But let's say they started all while.

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Let's say it's a woman, my husband.

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We've been married for 35 years now.

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And of course, it's not the same

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as when we started out yet.

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But still, I love him still. Yeah.

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But now it's as if I can't feel this anymore.

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I'm so depressed and I can't feel this anymore.

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And I see that he tries to help me and he lost me, too.

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I see that.

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But how good we are, we have

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time together and my children too. Yeah.

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I would be a good model for them.

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They have to do what they have to do

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but I will be nice and gentle with them.

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So in the second stage, you clarify

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these desired future by asking questions.

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Asking questions? Yeah.

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About the family system, about their

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work, for instance, about their friends,

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the social aspects of the trucks.

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I need to have quite a clear picture of that.

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That's what you need for the driving they need.

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Okay.

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So I offer them the possibility

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to formulate it for themselves.

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They formulate it for me but

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they formulated for themselves too.

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That's what I wanted to know. Yeah.

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Well I have already some of the skills.

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How do you connect them?

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I connect them.

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And to connect them generally I use a scale.

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You have discussed me what a

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good line would be for you.

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Let's say on a scale of zero

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to ten is that your life is like that.

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That's zeroish either I say is deposit

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or it's the worst it has been in

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the last six months or something like that.

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Where are you now and then if they haven't

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really bad, they will say I'm not at all

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or two if it's a little less.

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Sometimes those who have complained happily will

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say that what allows you to say

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that you are at three already? Yeah. Okay.

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Well my health is so good for

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me sometimes I help them a little.

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I say I've heard that you do daily chores,

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you do them, you get up to do well.

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I won't say it.

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Everything is as tidy and neat as what I'm well.

22:23.696 --> 22:29.370
But still you manage to make it good enough also. Yeah.

22:29.420 --> 22:30.020
Okay.

22:31.070 --> 22:33.534
Still you manage to make it good enough.

22:33.692 --> 22:37.726
There you connect the resource, the activation

22:37.798 --> 22:40.762
of the resource and show that it's

22:40.786 --> 22:42.800
points think towards the good life.

22:46.050 --> 22:47.460
Yeah, that's right.

23:03.670 --> 23:06.494
To the third stage I say okay,

23:06.532 --> 23:08.140
I have a clear picture now.

23:14.090 --> 23:16.134
Helping yourself already.

23:16.232 --> 23:20.900
Not to go any deeper but you are trying to

23:21.410 --> 23:31.150
maintain yourself although you are so depressed also and then

23:31.320 --> 23:35.134
say okay, well when will we meet again?

23:35.292 --> 23:37.498
Is two weeks okay for you or do

23:37.524 --> 23:39.840
you want one week or three weeks?

23:41.610 --> 23:43.318
Two weeks. Yeah. Okay.

23:43.464 --> 23:49.320
Well, could you do the following every night,

23:50.670 --> 23:54.034
maybe not only three nights a week.

23:54.072 --> 23:55.702
If every night is too much for

23:55.716 --> 24:05.840
you, we come back to that.

24:06.650 --> 24:09.126
But let's see it's every night. Yeah.

24:09.188 --> 24:11.778
Every night you look at your day and

24:11.804 --> 24:13.760
you will see now you are at three.

24:14.270 --> 24:17.202
But sometimes you will have gone down

24:17.336 --> 24:19.530
to two or even to one.

24:19.700 --> 24:20.838
Life is like that.

24:20.924 --> 24:25.320
It's not always the same.

24:25.890 --> 24:29.218
And if you have gone down and then

24:29.244 --> 24:31.020
you have come up to three again.

24:31.530 --> 24:33.180
How did you do that?

24:34.770 --> 24:37.774
Coming up again, one half more down.

24:37.932 --> 24:40.862
How did you go to three?

24:41.006 --> 24:47.518
I will be very interested in that how you do that.

24:47.664 --> 24:51.478
So now I oriented the work, the skills they have not

24:51.624 --> 24:57.394
yet asked about but which are also useful for attending, to

24:57.432 --> 25:00.790
observe how you did do that on those observed modes.

25:02.130 --> 25:06.058
So I don't tell them, try to stay at

25:06.084 --> 25:09.202
three or try to come to four or whatever.

25:09.396 --> 25:11.926
But how do you do that while you have come down?

25:12.108 --> 25:16.658
This sounds almost like ignorant because when

25:16.684 --> 25:18.760
you say how did you do that?

25:19.390 --> 25:21.650
It presupposes when it happened in the past.

25:21.700 --> 25:23.140
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

25:23.470 --> 25:26.642
So it's like you move the difficulty to the

25:26.656 --> 25:32.810
past and when you look back, how did you do it?

25:36.730 --> 25:38.954
Sometimes it depends. Sometimes I have.

25:38.992 --> 25:45.086
And maybe that you go up to four, maybe, I don't know.

25:45.268 --> 25:48.330
Maybe I heard you.

25:48.380 --> 25:49.640
Did you do that?

25:50.090 --> 25:52.400
I will be very interested in that.

25:53.810 --> 25:54.246
Okay.

25:54.308 --> 25:56.970
So do you agree to do that?

25:57.020 --> 25:58.734
And then we talk about that next

25:58.772 --> 26:00.378
time we come, you will meet.

26:00.464 --> 26:01.940
We will talk about that.

26:02.390 --> 26:06.560
Do you agree you try to make a kind of contract. Yeah.

26:09.450 --> 26:10.586
Without pressure.

26:10.718 --> 26:11.890
Without pressure.

26:11.890 --> 26:16.914
It is kind of formal statement like yes.

26:16.914 --> 26:18.914
That's the end of the session.

26:21.070 --> 26:24.578
So what happens is if I look at it, that

26:24.604 --> 26:30.066
the main structure is you asking questions, they're giving answers.

26:30.138 --> 26:30.760
Absolutely.

26:31.090 --> 26:35.654
And so maybe for purpose of clarity, what

26:35.692 --> 26:38.558
are the different sets of questions that if

26:38.584 --> 26:40.718
we can repeat the frame of the questions,

26:40.864 --> 26:43.154
then afterwards I would like to dive more

26:43.192 --> 26:47.610
into the other dynamics, the more nonverbal dynamics.

26:47.670 --> 26:56.180
We have the first part, but it goes on until the end.

26:56.990 --> 27:00.270
But the first part I ask my questions are about

27:00.320 --> 27:06.200
that complaint, about that suffering, how bad it is, and

27:07.370 --> 27:10.700
details of their complaints on the first part.

27:11.210 --> 27:17.478
Then after 1 minute already that comes, how

27:17.504 --> 27:24.542
do you manage to be not worse? Details

27:24.566 --> 27:30.902
of the complaints and then the management to make it

27:30.916 --> 27:33.090
so that it doesn't not even get worse.

27:33.270 --> 27:35.594
Also, there you go into detail. Yeah.

27:35.692 --> 27:37.482
I will also into details.

27:37.566 --> 27:39.774
And in both of them you try to reflect

27:39.822 --> 27:44.020
as much as possible the vocabulary and the patient. Absolutely.

27:44.410 --> 27:46.490
Echoing the patient.

27:47.290 --> 27:52.282
Sometimes I do a little, I don't

27:52.306 --> 27:55.314
forbid every phrase, of course, pronounce one

27:55.352 --> 27:58.580
in three or something, three phrases here.

27:58.910 --> 28:01.400
And sometimes I condense a little here.

28:02.030 --> 28:14.102
But if I condense it, I always ask, is that right?

28:14.102 --> 28:16.102
Then you make the quality check.

28:16.102 --> 28:20.978
Don't repeat word for word.I always ask is that right?

28:25.190 --> 28:25.940
Okay.

28:27.170 --> 28:29.780
So that's the second kind of question.

28:30.230 --> 28:33.260
And the third kind of question is about the good life.

28:35.450 --> 28:37.760
What do you want out of your life?

28:38.390 --> 28:40.062
So if things go the way you

28:40.076 --> 28:44.420
want, what's happening, how does it look? Absolutely.

28:45.530 --> 28:48.570
And then you start to connect

28:48.740 --> 28:51.330
the resources to the good life. Absolutely.

28:51.500 --> 28:53.430
And is that mainly through

28:53.480 --> 28:57.234
questions or mainly through examples? Well, yes.

28:57.272 --> 28:59.660
It's always as concrete as possible.

29:00.170 --> 29:02.120
As concrete as possible.

29:04.010 --> 29:04.962
That's two questions.

29:05.036 --> 29:06.020
Yes, of course.

29:06.530 --> 29:09.980
Questions about examples. Okay.

29:11.090 --> 29:15.186
Because when I read your books and I listen

29:15.248 --> 29:19.206
to what you teach, most of the descriptions are

29:19.268 --> 29:22.640
about the questions and let's say the digital information.

29:22.970 --> 29:23.720
Yeah.

29:24.830 --> 29:30.382
Now in condensing this five minute therapy or this ultra

29:30.406 --> 29:35.902
brief therapy, you surely do more because there's first stage

29:35.926 --> 29:40.674
of building the connection, the empathy, and then there is

29:40.712 --> 29:44.074
the stage of making a certain transition.

29:44.242 --> 29:47.658
So I would like to know more about what do you do?

29:47.744 --> 29:52.110
Kinesthetically to join the patient.

29:52.670 --> 29:53.660
That's right.

29:54.650 --> 29:57.030
Let's stay with the depressed

29:58.010 --> 30:00.474
patient while she says that

30:00.572 --> 30:04.974
she says I like suffering so much.

30:05.132 --> 30:07.100
And I said, I like that too.

30:07.430 --> 30:18.538
And they echo what she says she's suffering and

30:18.564 --> 30:21.720
has the same tone of voice.

30:27.910 --> 30:33.246
When I come to the patient, you don't

30:33.378 --> 30:36.386
go back to your bed again.

30:36.448 --> 30:39.494
I lift myself up a little bit and my

30:39.532 --> 30:47.030
voice changes, becomes a little more firm when I

30:47.140 --> 30:50.740
point out more resource that she's talking about.

30:51.190 --> 30:54.698
But this first phase, I go again

30:54.844 --> 30:58.130
in this memory of her voice.

31:04.310 --> 31:09.174
And then the second phase starts about the good

31:09.212 --> 31:17.626
life. I need to know some more details about what you do

31:17.688 --> 31:20.530
kinesthetically in the first stage.

31:21.450 --> 31:24.502
So on one side, it's a communicational thing,

31:24.576 --> 31:28.954
because by going down, you connect just like

31:28.992 --> 31:30.238
what you do with the word.

31:30.384 --> 31:34.162
But I imagine that part of what you do

31:34.296 --> 31:40.306
is for yourself getting an internal kinesthetic, getting

31:40.368 --> 31:43.954
a sense of these patients, like a way of

31:43.992 --> 31:48.430
associating with the perspective and the pain or whatever.

31:48.600 --> 31:50.782
To what degree do you need that

31:50.856 --> 31:53.290
to get in tune with the patients?

31:54.930 --> 31:57.778
And to what degree does this explain

31:57.864 --> 31:59.414
how you make the shift afterwards?

31:59.462 --> 32:01.522
Because you say that first you are in

32:01.536 --> 32:03.422
tune, and then there comes the shift.

32:03.566 --> 32:06.346
And I had the impression when I watched you

32:06.468 --> 32:09.278
that at the moment you make the shift, there's

32:09.314 --> 32:13.920
also a change in perceptual position for yourself.

32:14.430 --> 32:18.310
First, you are almost like in the skin of a patient.

32:18.750 --> 32:21.638
You're not yet fully the chess

32:21.674 --> 32:24.430
player who is purely strategic.

32:25.530 --> 32:28.558
And I would wonder if this change

32:28.584 --> 32:30.122
of posture is a way of anchoring

32:30.146 --> 32:33.842
yourself to move yourself to this differently.

32:33.926 --> 32:36.214
Can you try to describe that more in detail?

32:36.372 --> 32:42.394
Well, when I joined the patient where she

32:42.432 --> 32:54.890
is in her depression, it comes from herself.

32:54.940 --> 32:56.500
I don't have to try it.

32:56.500 --> 33:01.782
I feel

33:01.850 --> 33:03.966
I have been down in my life also.

33:04.028 --> 33:06.442
Everybody like that.

33:06.576 --> 33:12.118
So I feel this in my body, in my

33:12.144 --> 33:16.510
stomach, in my heart, I feel the same.

33:16.560 --> 33:19.080
I feel the suffering, too.

33:19.770 --> 33:22.114
And then suddenly there's this.

33:22.272 --> 33:24.214
Oh, but I don't go too much.

33:24.252 --> 33:28.090
Again, there is this tick, that little switch.

33:29.670 --> 33:33.178
Could it be that something that a patient says is

33:33.204 --> 33:36.874
for you, like an external trigger, while you recognize the

33:36.912 --> 33:41.206
first trigger that might connect to a solution and future

33:41.268 --> 33:45.418
perspective, and that is like this trigger is anchoring you

33:45.444 --> 33:52.994
to say, okay, relax, the first one just so.

33:53.092 --> 33:55.434
But there is a little light at the end of the tunnel.

33:55.482 --> 33:57.460
There not more.

33:58.030 --> 34:03.182
But then when I have accumulated two,

34:03.256 --> 34:07.720
three resources, skills and so on. Okay. Yeah.

34:08.889 --> 34:11.620
Well, can I ask you something?

34:12.730 --> 34:14.474
Could it be that this is something that

34:14.512 --> 34:17.054
you need both to guide the patient, but

34:17.092 --> 34:19.081
also to guide yourself in the process.

34:19.275 --> 34:21.737
It's like you need another part of the brain.

34:21.774 --> 34:25.902
If I go on sitting like that, and that's

34:25.926 --> 34:28.000
what would be good life for you.

34:30.070 --> 34:32.978
I'm not in tune with my question.

34:33.123 --> 34:36.062
That means that while you first are more in

34:36.076 --> 34:38.893
tune with suffering patients, you now need to get

34:38.931 --> 34:43.237
in tune with yourself as a strategic with myself,

34:43.384 --> 34:48.580
but also with what the patient has come for. Okay.

34:49.090 --> 34:49.982
This is interesting.

34:50.056 --> 34:52.550
So in the first, you kinesthetically

34:52.929 --> 34:55.070
go in tune with the suffering.

34:55.389 --> 34:58.274
Once there is a trigger of the first light

34:58.432 --> 35:01.910
in the description that triggers you to cope.

35:02.890 --> 35:06.102
Now it sounds to me, but correct me if I'm

35:06.126 --> 35:10.338
wrong, as if you get in tune with the picture

35:10.494 --> 35:13.710
that you are cocreating with the climbing of the culture.

35:13.770 --> 35:14.174
Okay.

35:14.272 --> 35:16.554
But then at the same time, you get in tune

35:16.602 --> 35:23.018
with the kinesthetic pleasant or more pleasant feelings connected to

35:23.044 --> 35:25.218
the good life that connects to the picture.

35:25.374 --> 35:28.490
And you are like associating your body

35:28.660 --> 35:32.762
and yourself more to this desired future.

35:32.896 --> 35:34.734
That's what you are doing mentally.

35:34.902 --> 35:39.494
And then I don't follow the patient anymore. I model.

35:39.592 --> 35:40.886
Yeah. Yeah.

35:41.008 --> 35:45.220
So you start to lead and model.

35:45.790 --> 35:48.446
And if necessary, you might follow

35:48.508 --> 35:50.320
a little bit and go ahead.

35:53.690 --> 35:56.278
And at that point in the second stage,

35:56.314 --> 35:59.730
so the first stage, there is the auditory

36:01.650 --> 36:04.860
echoing, but you echo also with the body.

36:05.430 --> 36:08.642
But you get in tune with that perspective.

36:08.786 --> 36:12.360
You have this anchor that triggers you to go to

36:13.170 --> 36:17.818
relax, get in touch with who I am and what

36:17.844 --> 36:21.120
I can see that the client cannot yet see enough.

36:21.810 --> 36:25.558
And there you start to build

36:25.644 --> 36:27.660
that picture by asking questions.

36:28.410 --> 36:31.462
And did I get it right that you get a

36:31.476 --> 36:34.390
kind of picture inside of your mind of this good

36:34.440 --> 36:41.450
or normal or designed life, not a detailed picture?

36:43.690 --> 36:45.700
I don't know who sent that one.

36:46.990 --> 36:52.130
Most couples, most good couples look alike.

36:54.250 --> 36:55.900
Those don't function.

37:00.190 --> 37:03.770
They all function badly in different ways.

37:03.940 --> 37:09.374
It's less exaggerated because those who function well, they have

37:09.472 --> 37:20.502
also their own specific way. That means that when

37:20.576 --> 37:27.718
you refer in your theory to the external perspective, and

37:27.744 --> 37:30.238
that's where you are in touch quite a lot with

37:30.324 --> 37:33.540
what you would call normal life or good life.

37:35.430 --> 37:38.174
And it's like you get in tune with that database

37:38.222 --> 37:41.160
of what you know about what good life is.

37:41.610 --> 37:45.166
And by asking questions, you try to tap into

37:45.228 --> 37:49.080
some details of what that would mean for them.

37:50.910 --> 37:52.858
And by doing that, you are

37:52.884 --> 37:55.800
constructing their picture for themselves. Yes.

37:58.150 --> 38:02.858
The more I enter into details, it

38:02.884 --> 38:06.578
has been accumulating more detail after another,

38:06.724 --> 38:11.020
but entering in detail in the detail.

38:13.310 --> 38:18.620
So for themselves, they have almost lived it already.

38:20.390 --> 38:23.960
They have such a clear picture that

38:24.470 --> 38:27.140
it's almost there for a moment. Yeah.

38:27.770 --> 38:30.800
That sounds like a hypnotic thing.

38:33.270 --> 38:35.280
Do you have more information about

38:35.730 --> 38:39.418
what hypnotically you're doing there by

38:39.444 --> 38:43.140
eliciting that picture with asking details. Yes.

38:51.670 --> 38:57.180
If I'm focused enough, then it goes into immediate trans.

38:58.010 --> 38:58.698
Okay.

38:58.844 --> 39:03.150
So that means that by asking these very detailed, specific

39:03.260 --> 39:08.502
questions, you focus their attention to as if they go

39:08.516 --> 39:12.466
into mini trends to be able to see that picture.

39:12.658 --> 39:15.138
And you seem to do something to

39:15.164 --> 39:18.546
connect these resources to that picture. Absolutely.

39:18.668 --> 39:19.340
Yeah.

39:21.690 --> 39:26.590
And from there, you move to the observation.

39:29.710 --> 39:34.034
And you told me in another discussion that when

39:34.072 --> 39:37.118
you are setting up the observation task, there is

39:37.144 --> 39:40.360
also some hypnotic looping that you sue sometimes. Yes.

39:41.890 --> 39:44.450
I will try to do demonstration.

39:45.550 --> 39:50.198
So you have told me you are at

39:50.224 --> 39:53.560
three on the scale of zero to ten.

39:54.010 --> 39:57.494
Well, look, may I ask you to do

39:57.532 --> 40:00.640
something between now and when we meet again?

40:01.270 --> 40:05.020
It's not just observing something that I have.

40:07.310 --> 40:10.074
You will see life is like that.

40:10.232 --> 40:11.958
Life is not always the same.

40:12.104 --> 40:13.542
And now you are free.

40:13.676 --> 40:15.162
And there will be days between

40:15.236 --> 40:18.990
now and when we meet again.

40:19.100 --> 40:21.414
There will be days when we have gone

40:21.452 --> 40:23.922
down a bit, something will have happened.

40:24.056 --> 40:30.550
Or you will go down a little.

40:30.600 --> 40:34.020
You will go down to two or even two, one.

40:34.710 --> 40:36.540
And then you will go up again.

40:41.830 --> 40:44.906
And then you'll come out of this too.

40:45.028 --> 40:49.778
And how did you manage that when you have gone down to

40:49.804 --> 40:53.740
two, how did you manage to come up to see again?

40:54.490 --> 40:57.160
That interests me very much.

40:57.160 --> 41:02.750
Down to two, and then come up to three.

41:02.750 --> 41:11.290
And you say, oh, but today at 09:00, I woke up

41:11.400 --> 41:16.140
and I felt so bad, I think I was at one.

41:16.710 --> 41:19.500
And then I fell asleep again.

41:19.950 --> 41:21.960
Or I stayed in bed anyway.

41:22.590 --> 41:27.300
And then I got up, I was still feeling bad.

41:27.870 --> 41:34.706
And then I said, okay, well, I went down

41:34.768 --> 41:40.060
and made myself a little breakfast, some yogurt and

41:40.750 --> 41:45.880
some wheat and strong cup of tea.

41:47.510 --> 41:48.126
Okay.

41:48.248 --> 41:51.606
I felt a little better already. Okay.

41:51.668 --> 41:56.166
So that's how you did it,

41:56.348 --> 41:59.538
for instance, or did something else. Yeah.

41:59.564 --> 42:03.378
It's interesting because first when you are setting up the

42:03.404 --> 42:08.686
task, I heard the word again on the solution.

42:08.878 --> 42:12.906
So the implied suggestion there is that there is a

42:12.908 --> 42:15.294
series of times otherwise there cannot be an again.

42:15.392 --> 42:15.870
Absolutely.

42:15.980 --> 42:20.358
And then afterwards, when as a so called patient, I

42:20.384 --> 42:24.200
give a solution, you again go to this again.

42:25.910 --> 42:27.162
It's like two times.

42:27.296 --> 42:30.102
And when I was trying to put myself in the position

42:30.176 --> 42:33.742
of a patient, I felt like it's not actually drawn.

42:33.766 --> 42:36.594
I was following your hand and

42:36.752 --> 42:38.758
I was visualizing the scale.

42:38.914 --> 42:40.842
And visualizing things is one

42:40.856 --> 42:42.320
of the most hypnotic things.

42:45.390 --> 42:49.354
Here you are how often I have repeatedly come down

42:49.392 --> 42:52.200
to two and then you come up to three.

42:53.430 --> 42:55.414
I have repeated that again and again.

42:55.452 --> 42:58.214
It's like you sign on my neurological pathways.

42:58.322 --> 42:58.882
Absolutely.

42:59.016 --> 43:00.226
Into the habit building.

43:00.288 --> 43:03.622
It's like you need to be sure that the

43:03.636 --> 43:08.650
synapses had been fired several times in a row.

43:11.410 --> 43:14.654
And there's also something in the way you use your

43:14.692 --> 43:25.158
voice that what is an emphasize and again there is

43:25.184 --> 43:28.518
this like climbing upwards which is the tonality of the

43:28.544 --> 43:34.578
word so that means if I tried to look at

43:34.604 --> 43:40.940
the full process that where you start with asking questions

43:41.510 --> 43:45.534
you start to get in tune with the patient, with

43:45.572 --> 43:49.426
the digital words, with intonation of your voice with repeating

43:49.558 --> 43:54.618
the same words with the body so that part of

43:54.644 --> 43:57.574
you really connects with the patient.

43:57.742 --> 44:00.846
What might even help you to ask more

44:00.968 --> 44:04.602
targeted questions because your questions are listening to

44:04.616 --> 44:07.974
the content but I would guess that being

44:08.072 --> 44:12.874
kinesthetically connected to what the patient is feeling

44:12.982 --> 44:16.580
it might help you ask for more details. Absolutely.

44:17.210 --> 44:21.850
And then in the next stage you continue with details

44:21.910 --> 44:27.154
but since you get in tune with the future perspective

44:27.322 --> 44:39.310
and it's like the first one.There one might

44:39.360 --> 44:44.074
assume from hypnotherapy we all know that hypnotherapist always goes

44:44.112 --> 44:49.402
into a transfer that even without the words just the

44:49.416 --> 44:54.238
fact that you start to see the picture even if

44:54.264 --> 44:57.530
the picture at the beginning has not that many details

44:57.710 --> 45:01.846
induces in the other one the trends of being open

45:01.908 --> 45:05.650
to work, to seeing a future oriented a different picture.

45:06.210 --> 45:13.322
Absolutely and it probably triggers even intonation of the

45:13.336 --> 45:17.222
voice and your breathing pattern and since you went

45:17.356 --> 45:21.710
down with me and you were pacing me very

45:21.760 --> 45:26.198
closely and echoing me very closely the essence is

45:26.224 --> 45:30.038
there that might increase my tendency to want to

45:30.064 --> 45:34.466
pace you to feel and see and hear this

45:34.648 --> 45:39.460
desired future as a very present option. Absolutely.

45:41.870 --> 45:48.246
After the observation task I invite them to pay attention to

45:48.368 --> 45:55.620
when they go up well that they will go down also.

45:56.070 --> 46:02.890
That's life. So on the follow up sessions, I always ask

46:03.000 --> 46:08.254
my opening question is so what did you do well?

46:08.292 --> 46:13.694
what didn't also go well already?

46:13.792 --> 46:15.440
Yeah, so you do well.

Ultra-short therapy demystified - in English, Part 2 (16'):



00:00.070 --> 00:02.900
And what didn't go so well?

00:05.910 --> 00:08.280
Whatever they tell me that went well.

00:09.270 --> 00:11.590
As an answer to the question, what did you do?

00:11.640 --> 00:14.040
Well, they did it.

00:15.090 --> 00:17.314
Whatever they answer to the question, question and

00:17.352 --> 00:23.640
what didn't go so well, that's life.

00:25.590 --> 00:27.586
Am I getting it right?

00:27.768 --> 00:30.970
If I look at the information system that you

00:31.020 --> 00:35.038
are at that moment, then there's two categories of

00:35.064 --> 00:37.658
flows of information coming to your brain.

00:37.814 --> 00:39.770
One is the information that you distract

00:39.830 --> 00:42.900
from the patient by asking the question,

00:43.410 --> 00:45.310
by seeing the body language change.

00:45.360 --> 00:50.222
And so but the second set of information in your brain

00:50.366 --> 00:54.982
is your knowledge of what a normal good life is about.

00:55.056 --> 00:55.680
Yeah.

01:08.350 --> 01:12.400
If I would compare to upcycle analytic process there,

01:12.730 --> 01:17.258
maybe the therapist would be in tune partially with

01:17.284 --> 01:19.794
the patient and partially with all what he knows

01:19.842 --> 01:22.720
about audible complexes and other things.

01:23.290 --> 01:27.062
While your benchmark or what you are also

01:27.136 --> 01:30.340
in touch with is of a totally different

01:39.290 --> 01:42.162
These folks and things like that.

01:42.356 --> 01:50.494
The professional physiologists have established that when we are

01:50.532 --> 01:52.798
in the present and I look at you and

01:52.824 --> 01:55.618
I listen to you and I look around me

01:55.644 --> 01:57.586
and I do this gesture as well.

01:57.708 --> 02:01.800
There's certain parts of the brain that light up.

02:02.370 --> 02:05.174
And when we look to the future, there's

02:05.282 --> 02:07.018
what will be the good life for you?

02:07.104 --> 02:09.660
It's the same parts of the brain that lined up.

02:10.050 --> 02:17.198
Whereas when I look back to the past, of course, it's

02:17.234 --> 02:20.794
partly the same, but it's also a very important part.

02:20.832 --> 02:23.160
It's auto parts of the brain that light up.

02:23.610 --> 02:29.510
So when I ask for them to pay attention

02:29.570 --> 02:32.938
to when they come up again, out of two

02:32.964 --> 02:37.234
to three, I project them into the future.

02:37.332 --> 02:40.054
I predict that they will come up from two

02:40.092 --> 02:44.998
to three here and that they will do that.

02:45.144 --> 02:52.294
And this information of how will I do that is in

02:52.392 --> 02:56.520
same parts of the brain as what is happening now.

02:57.450 --> 02:59.230
So it's super imposed.

03:00.030 --> 03:06.578
And if I feel very bad now, think about what

03:06.604 --> 03:10.850
have I done today to get from one to two

03:10.900 --> 03:13.240
or four, two to three or four, three to four.

03:14.590 --> 03:18.942
Super imposed on this bad feeling

03:19.086 --> 03:21.230
is what have I accomplished.

03:21.790 --> 03:27.282
Because the same something that works.

03:27.476 --> 03:29.926
And that reminds me, I had a discussion

03:30.118 --> 03:33.690
in December with Martin Seligman who said that

03:33.800 --> 03:35.842
in what he sees in the research he's

03:35.866 --> 03:39.970
studying is very similar, that the brain patterns.

03:40.030 --> 03:42.606
So it's not only that it's the same

03:42.728 --> 03:45.990
brain patterns, but that the brain patterns are

03:46.040 --> 03:51.106
also more in sync, that there's less chaos.

03:51.298 --> 03:54.102
And when you look at events of the past,

03:54.296 --> 03:57.910
it's like there's a lot of complex information that's

03:57.970 --> 04:01.962
almost chaotic to process, while when you're focused in

04:01.976 --> 04:06.190
the present and or the future, there's more harmony.

04:06.310 --> 04:06.980
Absolutely.

04:07.910 --> 04:09.726
Where his assumption is

04:09.908 --> 04:12.858
and it's almost the same assumptionalizing that

04:12.884 --> 04:16.338
the brain is more designed to create

04:16.483 --> 04:19.279
the future then to analyze the past.

04:22.830 --> 04:24.850
So that's interesting.

04:24.960 --> 04:31.380
So there is on one side, this process of

04:33.450 --> 04:36.600
asking the right questions and distilling the right information.

04:37.230 --> 04:41.006
Then at the same time you have this kinesthetic

04:41.078 --> 04:45.250
process where you connect with the patient's suffering.

04:45.570 --> 04:49.642
Then after there is this bonding between

04:49.716 --> 04:53.134
both of you, you go into your more

04:53.232 --> 04:56.100
strategic mode where you can start to lead.

04:57.030 --> 05:01.070
You switch to different questions that are focusing

05:01.130 --> 05:04.978
on constructing the future picture, connecting them to

05:05.004 --> 05:07.318
the resource that were already emerging in the

05:07.344 --> 05:08.700
end of the first part.

05:10.050 --> 05:12.322
At that moment you already start to be a

05:12.336 --> 05:15.994
little bit more hypnotic and suggestive and you might

05:16.032 --> 05:19.620
use things like presuppositions or time predicates of others.

05:20.490 --> 05:22.966
And that hypnotic process will be even

05:23.028 --> 05:26.350
reinforced when you give this observation task,

05:28.770 --> 05:30.538
even when you are demonstrating it.

05:30.564 --> 05:33.506
Now I felt something like time distortion.

05:33.638 --> 05:36.425
It's like you say, I do that in 1 minute.

05:36.440 --> 05:40.791
I didn't have the impression it was only 1 minute.

05:40.806 --> 05:45.354
I was going through a longer period

05:45.402 --> 05:47.320
of time in my subjective world.

05:47.890 --> 05:51.398
So now there's one other aspect that I'm interested

05:51.484 --> 05:56.162
in is that you mentioned once that in a

05:56.176 --> 05:59.318
lot of research we see that the quality of

05:59.344 --> 06:08.180
a junior therapist after maybe 40-50 patients. Maybe it is better you explain well.

06:08.690 --> 06:13.220
There have been some quite some research on that.

06:14.570 --> 06:17.850
Is it so that a seasoned well

06:17.900 --> 06:21.102
experienced that always gets a better result

06:21.236 --> 06:24.690
than the junior inexperienced therapist?

06:26.270 --> 06:28.650
In fact, it's almost the opposite.

06:29.450 --> 06:37.570
Junior therapists are often more effective than old fox.

06:39.250 --> 06:43.578
And the explanation one gives us that the older

06:43.614 --> 06:48.950
therapists all have heard me too.

06:49.000 --> 06:50.666
I have heard it over here.

06:50.788 --> 06:52.480
They can't surprise me.

06:53.710 --> 06:57.590
So they may be more or less interested because

06:57.640 --> 07:02.330
they have already heard it for x time, whereas

07:02.890 --> 07:05.414
the young ones don't have all this experience.

07:05.512 --> 07:08.930
So they are very interested and they try to see

07:08.980 --> 07:13.360
how can they help this person and so on.

07:14.350 --> 07:15.854
So they are very interested.

07:15.952 --> 07:25.638
And there's other research that was done after

07:25.724 --> 07:28.554
a client comes out of the recession and

07:28.592 --> 07:30.980
they ask him what has helped you most.

07:31.490 --> 07:38.826
And number one answer is this therapist really listen

07:38.888 --> 07:41.922
to me and he was really interested in me

07:42.056 --> 07:45.390
and I felt understood that's the number one.

07:45.500 --> 07:46.350
How do you do that?

07:46.400 --> 07:50.862
What's your motivation strategy to keep at a

07:50.876 --> 07:56.130
later age? Still I'm so interested in details.

07:56.750 --> 07:58.458
The details are all different.

07:58.544 --> 08:00.030
I love something interesting.

08:00.140 --> 08:03.198
And are you really interested in the details? Please?

08:03.284 --> 08:04.602
Are you then really interested in details?

08:04.676 --> 08:06.560
I'm really interested. Okay.

08:07.370 --> 08:09.306
That's part of the film. Yeah.

08:09.368 --> 08:14.794
Because if I'm not interested in details, it's

08:14.842 --> 08:19.710
boring but I don't like to be bored.

08:20.630 --> 08:23.158
So I'm really interested because that's

08:23.194 --> 08:25.758
what makes it interesting for me. Yeah.

08:25.904 --> 08:28.918
So it's like the main templates

08:29.014 --> 08:32.179
and schemes remain quite similar.

08:32.510 --> 08:36.380
There's not that many strategies to live a happy life.

08:38.270 --> 08:45.200
There are some inherent rules in nature to follow.

08:45.710 --> 08:49.938
But your detective quality to be really,

08:49.964 --> 08:54.090
really interested, just like reading a novel.

08:58.070 --> 09:21.470
Did you mention? You love to read? That's what I like.You follow the suspense

09:22.270 --> 09:28.120
and who did it?

09:28.315 --> 09:36.726
Noble details,just like Steve de Shazer.Reading novels.Just like diving into the details.

09:37.090 --> 09:40.538
So that means that your motivation strategy to

09:40.564 --> 09:44.258
keep interested over time and not only interested

09:44.344 --> 09:46.866
for you, but probably being a better therapist,

09:46.938 --> 09:49.922
then maybe some other people might worry about

09:49.996 --> 09:53.210
over time is to really be fascinated by the details.

09:55.090 --> 09:57.146
And each person is different.

09:57.268 --> 09:59.078
And of course, then I can imagine that if

09:59.104 --> 10:02.978
you are fascinated by the details, repeating the words

10:03.064 --> 10:06.338
literally is less boring because you know that it

10:06.364 --> 10:11.186
will lead to some curiosity detail that will interest

10:11.248 --> 10:13.250
you to some original solution.

10:14.110 --> 10:15.040
They will.

10:15.790 --> 10:19.720
Now there's one thing I wanted to go back.

10:20.590 --> 10:23.020
Now you are doing this.

10:23.350 --> 10:27.086
Sometimes you do short therapy, sometimes you take your time

10:27.148 --> 10:32.138
depending on the mood, but it starts all in the

10:32.164 --> 10:35.498
beginning of your career because you have a kind of

10:35.644 --> 10:39.002
believe or an idea that it's not done to have

10:39.016 --> 10:46.518
the patient on the way unless patients are suffering and

10:46.544 --> 10:50.398
you tell them, okay, that's okay, go and suffer.

10:50.494 --> 10:54.080
Like, I can see you only in

10:54.410 --> 10:56.840
three months time or six months time.

11:00.870 --> 11:06.006
That's not why we chose this career.

11:06.138 --> 11:08.186
And that made you make a decision that

11:08.248 --> 11:12.066
probably has contributed to your learning curve.

11:12.258 --> 11:15.846
And the reason why I want to evoke it in this interview

11:16.038 --> 11:20.786
is that we are not only looking on what are you doing?

11:20.848 --> 11:25.058
But if I'm beginner therapist or someone is

11:25.084 --> 11:28.046
a student, what are strategies to get there?

11:28.168 --> 11:32.860
And what would you do if you had half a day? Yeah.

11:33.310 --> 11:37.720
On Monday afternoon, starting at 1:00 pm, I

11:37.816 --> 11:44.555
had a consultation without appointment.

11:44.565 --> 11:47.814
And then there were 30 people here.

11:47.972 --> 11:53.794
I saw 30 people in the office, but

11:53.952 --> 11:56.880
I was there and I saw everyone.

11:57.330 --> 12:02.280
So that helped me in the sense that

12:03.990 --> 12:07.162
people were sitting in the waiting room and

12:07.176 --> 12:10.810
there were ten people who were waiting.

12:11.550 --> 12:16.378
So they knew we have to make it

12:16.404 --> 12:19.178
happen here because all the others are waiting.

12:19.214 --> 12:21.060
I can't sit here for an hour.

12:22.710 --> 12:26.410
So they were collaborating.

12:26.970 --> 12:32.926
And for me also, I could go what they had.

12:33.108 --> 12:36.300
So that means that actually because at that moment,

12:36.690 --> 12:39.658
those skills of what you do now and that

12:39.684 --> 12:42.900
direction was not what was taught in your training.

12:43.470 --> 12:45.814
So your main training was

12:45.972 --> 12:49.874
and if I understood you right, creating a context

12:49.922 --> 12:54.046
where you are forced to get results and where

12:54.108 --> 12:58.318
people are expecting this and this expectation is

12:58.344 --> 13:00.154
not only on your shoulders but also on their

13:00.192 --> 13:03.230
shoulders, like kind of shared context elements.

13:03.290 --> 13:03.900
Absolutely.

13:04.350 --> 13:06.718
And the other thing, when you told me

13:06.804 --> 13:12.120
that's your philosophy about what's a good life. Yeah.

13:12.870 --> 13:14.830
So you were not connected.

13:18.490 --> 13:21.758
Most of my patients at that time, most of our

13:21.784 --> 13:34.170
patients are skilled workers, were not very great intellectuals.

13:35.210 --> 13:38.358
I was in psychoanalysis at that time, and I

13:38.384 --> 13:41.866
didn't see what I could do with the psychoanalytic

13:41.938 --> 13:50.563
method of these people.

13:50.563 --> 14:01.798
So, they were depressed or thinking too much or whatever

14:03.184 --> 14:05.320
But they have a solid good sense.

14:06.910 --> 14:10.180
I'm trying to do therapy over good sense.

14:11.530 --> 14:14.138
So you could say that what you are doing there

14:14.164 --> 14:17.034
is more what a medical doctor would do than psychiatry.

14:17.082 --> 14:17.774
Yeah, absolutely.

14:17.872 --> 14:21.398
And the medical doctor wants first, of course, to relieve the

14:21.424 --> 14:24.774
symptoms of fix. Because the medical doctor

14:24.822 --> 14:29.474
would look for the other origin of the trouble and that

14:29.632 --> 14:35.630
I didn't do what is there now and what does this

14:35.680 --> 14:40.934
person, what they want to achieve and what kind of life

14:40.972 --> 14:43.658
does she want to live and how can I help him

14:43.684 --> 14:47.200
to get her as simply and fast as possible?

14:47.770 --> 14:52.358
So if I would reverse this and I would have

14:52.384 --> 14:55.970
to design a training program, I would have to choose

14:56.020 --> 14:59.070
to teach a lot of theory of how to push

14:59.190 --> 15:03.650
the students in an office with 30 people queuing.

15:03.970 --> 15:06.914
It sounds that probably it would be better for the

15:06.952 --> 15:09.786
training to push them in the room with 30 patients

15:09.858 --> 15:12.842
queuing than giving them a lot of training.

15:12.976 --> 15:19.520
Yeah, that's interesting.

15:20.990 --> 15:25.160
The other things that you think are important to mention

15:25.490 --> 15:37.680
related to the ultra brief therapy procedure, maybe something about

15:38.130 --> 15:46.918
perhaps one thing at that point, if people came back,

15:47.004 --> 15:52.354
I told them you can come back right now this

15:52.392 --> 15:56.098
Monday on this conversation, and you come back. Whenever you

15:56.124 --> 16:00.178
want there or you can have an appointment, maybe that

16:00.204 --> 16:08.834
you have my appointments where I have freedom in my

16:08.872 --> 16:14.500
appointment still because nobody had to wait.

16:16.270 --> 16:18.458
Normally I could give an appointment in two

16:18.484 --> 16:21.590
or three weeks, so you can do that.

16:21.760 --> 16:24.690
And some came back on appointment

16:24.750 --> 16:27.760
and two or three weeks time.

16:35.990 --> 16:37.340
The follow up probably.

16:37.850 --> 16:39.358
What do you do in the second session

16:39.394 --> 16:50.074
is properly well, how does the therapy end?

16:50.232 --> 16:51.994
How do you know it's okay?

16:52.152 --> 16:56.794
And what I observed that there were quite

16:56.832 --> 16:59.842
a few people who made an appointment and

16:59.856 --> 17:01.630
they did show up at the appointment.

17:01.950 --> 17:05.160
So at first I thought, of course I did something wrong.

17:07.109 --> 17:10.066
And then I started getting referrals from people

17:10.188 --> 17:12.670
who hadn't shown up on the appointment.

17:15.089 --> 17:16.738
What I saw that most of these

17:16.763 --> 17:18.334
people didn't show up on their appointment.

17:18.372 --> 17:21.154
It was just because they were satisfied and

17:21.192 --> 17:22.990
they didn't see why don't you call back?

17:23.040 --> 17:34.778
Because I prefer to know and not

17:34.804 --> 17:37.300
to sit there waiting for someone.

17:38.170 --> 17:43.358
I started asking them at the end of the

17:43.384 --> 17:48.474
start of the fourth session, what do you think?

17:48.512 --> 17:50.180
Is that enough for you?

17:51.230 --> 17:55.458
Do you think you want to come back here or do

17:55.484 --> 17:59.670
you say, I think I can do parts of myself now

17:59.720 --> 18:03.800
and if I need it, I can always come back.

18:05.930 --> 18:08.874
The end of the session was the idea of

18:08.912 --> 18:13.542
therapy that was always determined by the guide, not by

18:13.676 --> 18:23.558
some program that said that has to be achieved.

18:23.654 --> 18:28.174
And sometimes I personally thought he will not make

18:28.212 --> 18:31.210
it, he will have to come back yet.

18:31.260 --> 18:32.460
But they made it.

18:33.870 --> 18:41.138
They come back. Because you once told me that

18:41.164 --> 18:44.114
there is some research, I don't know where it was

18:44.152 --> 18:49.350
on that suggests that it's more optimal if the patient

18:49.410 --> 18:52.538
comes one or two sessions more than the moment you

18:52.564 --> 18:57.750
would, but in your practical way of working, you decided

18:57.810 --> 19:09.078
to leave it open. It is interesting.Okay?

19:09.224 --> 19:09.420
Yeah.

After the interview, Luc was very enthusiastic and told Paul that he learned himself a lot about HOW he does do it specifically ... things he did not know consciously and as a consequence could not yet teach to his students. Sophie, Luc's wife was present during the interview and reported equally having learned a lot during this interview.

Remind that those interviews are meant exclusively for the advanced Solution Focused psychotherapist who already knows how to do Solution Focused Therapy, because the interview assumes you already have this knowledge before being able to fully understand the 'difference that makes the difference' ... turning brief therapy into ultrabrief therapy. Without this previous knowledge, the (even professional) listener will be very likely to misunderstand the content of this interview, because of missing the context provided by thorough 'Solution Focused Therapy' training. That is why we reserve this training exclusively to graduated advanced Solution Focused Therapists, embedded in a qualified training program.

At he European Brief Therapy Conference in Sofia 2017, Luc did 2 role played live demonstrations. You can watch them here:



00:03.610 --> 00:04.160
Okay.

00:05.270 --> 00:11.322
So dear friends, it's already many years that

00:11.396 --> 00:15.246
I observe my friends and mentor good to

00:15.308 --> 00:18.586
the demonstrations of ultra brief ceremony.

00:18.778 --> 00:23.230
I've seen him do it in casual conversations

00:23.350 --> 00:26.790
when we were with friends in dinners.

00:27.470 --> 00:30.210
I've seen him do it in training sessions.

00:30.710 --> 00:34.158
Sometimes he smiled and he said to the

00:34.184 --> 00:37.700
students, is there someone who has a watch?

00:38.210 --> 00:41.934
And then someone was looking at the amount

00:42.032 --> 00:45.982
of seconds he was doing a session.

00:46.126 --> 00:50.634
And then he smiled and he asked how long was it?

00:50.792 --> 00:52.254
And I remember one of the

00:52.292 --> 00:55.301
students answering, four minutes, 15.

00:55.314 --> 00:56.305
5 seconds.

00:56.318 --> 01:00.822
And it seems that the client was in

01:00.836 --> 01:04.422
the role play of a game entered left

01:04.495 --> 01:07.050
the room very happy with the solution.

01:07.490 --> 01:09.980
And I've seen that so many times.

01:10.490 --> 01:16.734
And in the years that I was sharing an apartment with

01:16.832 --> 01:22.786
him.I asked him every day almost, what's the secret?

01:22.978 --> 01:24.246
How do you do this?

01:24.368 --> 01:28.650
And he tried to explain and he repeats a lot of things

01:28.700 --> 01:32.826
that he finds in the books and I couldn't replicate it.

01:33.008 --> 01:36.414
So I told him two months ago, I said, look, can

01:36.452 --> 01:39.786
I come to you, take the video camera and to see

01:39.848 --> 01:45.354
even in an interview I can try to micro interview you

01:45.392 --> 01:48.500
to see what's the exact sequence of how you're doing.

01:49.670 --> 01:53.286
We had hoped that maybe we can show

01:53.408 --> 01:57.546
some minutes of the video, but anyway, on

01:57.608 --> 02:01.186
the paper, then there is a hyperlink.

02:01.378 --> 02:03.382
It's password protected.

02:03.526 --> 02:06.610
So the password is EBTA 2018.

02:06.670 --> 02:14.419
If you don't have the paper, make a..

02:15.270 --> 02:18.934
That's fine. The goal is that today we are not going to

02:18.972 --> 02:23.338
repeat the theory that we are going to do one,

02:23.424 --> 02:27.180
maybe two, maybe three demonstrations depending on the time.

02:27.750 --> 02:32.938
And we will put the recording also on the same website.

02:33.024 --> 02:37.701
So that means that if you do a role play,

02:38.010 --> 02:42.802
you implicitly agree that we can show this to the

02:42.816 --> 02:45.598
other people because that's a way of learning.

02:45.684 --> 02:49.558
The interview explains very much in detail combined with

02:49.584 --> 02:53.158
Luc's books, what he's doing, he's going to try

02:53.184 --> 02:56.570
to explain a little bit and in the practical

02:56.630 --> 02:58.860
demonstrations it will become more clear.

02:59.190 --> 03:02.974
What I remember from the 60 Minutes interview is

03:03.012 --> 03:06.730
that there is like about three stages and that

03:06.780 --> 03:10.174
when I listened to Luc's explanation, he told what

03:10.212 --> 03:12.382
kind of questions he was asking.

03:12.576 --> 03:15.802
But what escaped to me in the beginning is

03:15.816 --> 03:18.622
that in the first 90 seconds, more or less,

03:18.816 --> 03:22.354
he goes into the suffering and the pain, into

03:22.392 --> 03:24.910
the problem feeling with the client.

03:25.950 --> 03:30.742
But part of it is focused on what good life means.

03:30.936 --> 03:33.480
Just like Victor Franklin had in his mind

03:34.770 --> 03:39.058
that we all have a certain search for

03:39.144 --> 03:43.102
an existential meaning and he's listening for that.

03:43.236 --> 03:46.378
And at a certain point he seems to hear

03:46.464 --> 03:50.354
some sparkle of resource that goes into that direction.

03:50.522 --> 03:53.866
And then what I observed is that from going

03:53.928 --> 03:59.230
into the suffering he comes up and he takes a deep breath and

03:59.280 --> 04:02.974
seems to be leaving nonverbally the patient with that

04:03.012 --> 04:06.840
deep breath and shifting himself to another mental state.

04:07.710 --> 04:10.814
And from there it goes more to the resource oriented

04:10.862 --> 04:15.086
questions, ending in the end with an observation task.

04:15.218 --> 04:16.958
That's how I percieved.

04:16.994 --> 04:18.482
You will see it in the interview.

04:18.625 --> 04:20.410
It's in Dutch and in English.

04:23.050 --> 04:26.150
The password is EBTA 2018.

04:48.538 --> 04:59.685
Well, anyway, it seemed that Paul has said it all already. So, we can stop here.

05:05.033 --> 05:10.832
I had a few words in my mind.

05:11.690 --> 05:15.498
Paul said a few words about what is

05:15.524 --> 05:21.130
the use of this kind of personal therapy.

05:21.250 --> 05:21.920
Yeah.

05:28.070 --> 05:30.978
In the second demonstration, I interrupted all the time to say I have

05:31.004 --> 05:33.260
done this and what did you see and so on?

05:37.612 --> 05:40.571
Short demonstration first.

05:44.250 --> 05:45.360
Is it all right?

05:49.630 --> 05:52.538
When you go to the page, this is what you will see.

05:52.684 --> 05:54.830
You will see the two interviews.

05:55.570 --> 05:58.070
We are not going to spend all the time,

05:58.240 --> 06:00.460
but I want you to have a view.

06:30.150 --> 06:32.630
So what's your homework?

06:32.690 --> 06:35.302
If you are really interested to practical and to be

06:35.316 --> 06:38.554
able to do short therapy sessions in five minutes.

06:38.712 --> 06:42.514
I showed the video to a general physician, a friend

06:42.552 --> 06:46.678
of mine that I was coaching and was going almost

06:46.764 --> 06:50.758
into a burnout because she couldn't handle the amount of

06:50.784 --> 06:55.090
patients because she lost one of her assistance and she

06:55.200 --> 06:57.998
had to see double amount of patients.

06:58.154 --> 07:02.282
And I told her watch this video and see if it helps.

07:02.426 --> 07:04.894
And she told that it was a big relief to see

07:04.932 --> 07:07.870
how she can in less minutes do more with the patients.

07:08.250 --> 07:14.974
So I'm now giving the word to Luc for his advise.

07:15.012 --> 07:21.118
First I want to say if you work

07:21.144 --> 07:24.120
in a sitting where you have many patients

07:24.570 --> 07:27.540
to talk, by all means do so.

07:29.950 --> 07:32.906
It is not something that is

07:32.968 --> 07:36.834
fitted for all kinds difficult clients.

07:37.002 --> 07:39.138
It can be used with difficult clients,

07:39.234 --> 07:42.350
but you shouldn't expect great results.

07:43.390 --> 07:47.920
Whatever you do, you don't expect from them.

07:48.910 --> 07:53.282
But for instance, if this was the only thing

07:53.296 --> 07:59.374
you do with psychotic clients or with obsessive compulsive

07:59.422 --> 08:03.490
client, this alone would not be sufficient.

08:03.610 --> 08:09.858
But there are lots of people, physicians, social

08:09.944 --> 08:14.720
workers, psychologists who have little time to spend with

08:15.470 --> 08:19.654
patients and who want to do something significant with

08:19.702 --> 08:21.222
the little time they have.

08:21.416 --> 08:23.142
And this is for them.

08:23.336 --> 08:25.810
So it's not rocket science.

08:25.870 --> 08:29.840
You see that there in fact, it's quite simple.

08:30.770 --> 08:34.100
That one you will see for yourselves. Okay.

08:35.210 --> 08:38.120
Is someone willing to come here,

08:40.710 --> 08:43.380
my partner in the demonstration? Yeah.

09:10.570 --> 09:13.960
Is it all right with you if you are a man

09:14.410 --> 09:18.878
and you, let's say 50 years old, something like that, you

09:18.904 --> 09:24.938
are married and you have two children who are already 20

09:25.024 --> 09:28.578
or something like that and you are depressed.

09:28.614 --> 09:29.318
Is that okay?

09:29.404 --> 09:30.820
Is that okay with you?

09:39.450 --> 09:42.741
So, how do I address you?

09:43.110 --> 09:50.311
Jeff.

09:50.311 --> 09:52.311
So, Jeff.

09:52.970 --> 09:53.720
Hello.

09:54.710 --> 09:56.202
How can I help you?

09:56.396 --> 09:57.500
I don't know.

09:57.500 --> 09:59.500
I am very depressed.

10:05.070 --> 10:06.622
I don't sleep at night.

10:06.696 --> 10:08.710
I get up in the middle of the night.

10:08.880 --> 10:10.810
You get up in the middle of night? Yeah.

10:10.920 --> 10:12.770
I used to be much heavier.

10:12.890 --> 10:14.414
I lost appetite.

10:14.582 --> 10:30.450
So eating was one of my biggest joy in my life.

10:30.450 --> 10:32.450
So, I don't enjoy anything else.

10:32.450 --> 10:37.769
Even if I take a shower, I wouldn't enjoy.

10:37.769 --> 10:39.769
You have to force yourself.

10:39.769 --> 10:41.769
Yes, to get out of the bed.

10:41.769 --> 10:43.769
You have to force yourself.

10:43.769 --> 10:48.609
I have to force myself to come here but people told me that maybe I have...

10:49.410 --> 10:52.462
Are the days where you stay in bed all the time?

10:52.536 --> 10:54.780
The whole day? Yes.

10:55.259 --> 10:58.353
You don't even get up to shave or brush

10:59.920 --> 11:08.723
your teeth or anything? First you go to the toilet of course.

11:08.723 --> 11:11.240
I took a shower and shaved to meet you but

11:12.198 --> 11:16.670
You took a shower to come here?

11:18.293 --> 11:21.694
Was it something to difficult to do that?

11:21.694 --> 11:25.907
Yeah. I was smelling and this long beard.

11:25.907 --> 11:27.907
Was it a long travel to come here?

11:31.522 --> 11:35.329
I can see you have really mastered.

11:35.329 --> 11:39.063
It felt really tiring.

11:39.063 --> 11:41.063
You felt tired, right?

11:41.890 --> 11:43.250
Can you cry still?

11:43.360 --> 11:45.110
Yeah, you can cry.

11:45.110 --> 11:47.110
Yeah, I cry.

11:49.970 --> 11:59.134
You can cry and does it help you when you cry?

11:59.172 --> 12:13.480
I think so but I don't let myself. I understand that. I would like to ask you some questions.

12:17.690 --> 12:22.242
Let's say that I can help you to help yourself.

12:22.436 --> 12:25.170
Let's say that will be possible. Suppose that.

12:25.670 --> 12:28.254
And that in the time you will need,

12:28.292 --> 12:31.760
I don't know, two months, three months, whatever.

12:33.890 --> 12:37.746
You can look back on this interview and say, well,

12:37.868 --> 12:40.398
two or six months ago I was talking

12:40.424 --> 12:43.160
to you about how I was so bad.

12:43.490 --> 12:45.440
And now I'm much, much better.

12:46.010 --> 12:47.214
My life is now.

12:47.252 --> 12:50.000
If I don't let my life now, I can say,

12:50.330 --> 12:54.260
okay, this is not paralyzed, of course, paralyzes later maybe.

12:56.450 --> 13:04.558
But if my life went on like this, I would be happy.

13:04.704 --> 13:06.540
I would be satisfied with that.

13:07.410 --> 13:09.360
Let's suppose that would be possible.

13:11.670 --> 13:13.680
How would your life be done?

13:14.130 --> 13:16.140
How would it be different from now?

13:19.330 --> 13:21.794
I will get up from bed.

13:21.952 --> 13:32.130
You will get up from bed and take a shower and brush my teeth.

13:32.300 --> 13:33.500
I will go back to work.

13:35.450 --> 13:35.994
Yes.

13:36.092 --> 13:41.310
If you think, your life can work like that people go to work.

13:41.480 --> 14:03.202
And I feel better. And you feel better.

14:03.216 --> 14:04.740
Did your appetite come back also?Sure. What about your work?

14:05.730 --> 14:10.234
Would you say, I still don't like

14:10.272 --> 14:51.240
to go to work? Maybe I will enjoy work.

14:52.050 --> 14:52.798
If you want to,

14:52.824 --> 14:54.600
I can see you back next week.

14:55.470 --> 14:58.174
If you want, I can see you back next week because

14:58.212 --> 15:02.182
you are very deep down and I think it wouldn't be

15:02.316 --> 15:06.060
a good thing to wait too long before we talk again.

15:06.510 --> 15:07.260
Okay. I will take a shower.

15:10.770 --> 15:13.560
In the meantime, what I would propose you is this.

15:15.210 --> 15:20.086
I will propose you to think of a scale where

15:20.148 --> 15:24.358
you have described all your life would

15:24.384 --> 15:27.322
be good for you. Yeah.

15:27.456 --> 15:30.934
That would be ten and zero would

15:30.972 --> 15:32.880
be where you are now.

15:34.230 --> 15:39.370
And each time in the evening you could go

15:39.420 --> 15:42.754
back on your day and look, has there been

15:42.792 --> 15:52.540
a time where you came back to zero?

15:53.230 --> 15:56.020
What did you do to come back to zero?

15:56.590 --> 16:00.110
Or even perhaps maybe something may happen.

16:00.160 --> 16:03.520
Your wife may do something or children.

16:04.210 --> 16:06.460
That you say, I have been at one.

16:07.210 --> 16:08.786
What does that mean?

16:08.968 --> 16:09.950
That makes you out.

16:10.000 --> 16:29.180
Another thing I want you to do is also

16:37.850 --> 16:40.038
sometime during the day, it can be a deal.

16:40.124 --> 16:43.110
It can be somewhere else in the day.

16:43.220 --> 16:46.580
You look back and you say, today will I do something?

16:47.030 --> 16:51.140
Of which I say, I can't do that.

16:51.770 --> 16:55.220
I can't be satisfied and I did that.

16:55.550 --> 16:57.154
Or I could be satisfied.

16:57.202 --> 17:00.930
I can't feel satisfaction too much

17:00.980 --> 17:03.510
deep down, but I could be satisfied.

17:04.250 --> 17:07.506
Or perhaps someone else has done something

17:07.688 --> 17:10.134
that you would be grateful for that

17:10.172 --> 17:12.740
you'll be happy with or something. Yeah.

17:13.250 --> 17:16.541
How you have reacted on that sometime during the day?

17:16.675 --> 17:20.382
If you want to take a moment to look up

17:20.396 --> 17:28.500
on the arrangement appointment with my secretary for next week.

17:29.010 --> 17:29.482
Okay.

17:29.556 --> 17:30.840
Thank you very much.

17:30.840 --> 17:32.840
Thank you.

17:49.870 --> 17:51.170
Paul already did how I proceed.

17:53.810 --> 17:57.210
You did remind that I went very far into

17:57.320 --> 18:02.010
the problem state that I tried to make him

18:02.120 --> 18:04.340
say, oh, it's not as bad as that.

18:05.990 --> 18:10.906
I tried a different way. Did you stay in bed the whole day?

18:11.088 --> 18:13.138
Most depressed patients don't stay

18:13.164 --> 18:14.520
in bed the whole day.

18:15.870 --> 18:17.940
But there are patients who do that.

18:19.830 --> 18:25.550
Anyway, I tried to assume that

18:25.600 --> 18:29.200
he was even worse than he is.

18:30.790 --> 18:35.702
If I define his present state as zero

18:35.836 --> 18:40.278
Yeah, this is already a depressed

18:40.314 --> 18:42.230
state where it could be worse.

18:45.110 --> 18:47.240
I can say that, of course, but

18:47.750 --> 18:50.194
that's how it feels for the client.

18:50.362 --> 19:01.786
And then when I have exposed a little bit during

19:01.848 --> 19:05.086
the state and I have been very much on his

19:05.148 --> 19:09.720
level, as he said, start by the pace of this.

19:10.890 --> 19:14.160
Then I come to a kind of military question.

19:14.610 --> 19:17.962
I don't like to talk about miracles with

19:18.156 --> 19:21.480
depressed clients because I'm so far from them.

19:24.310 --> 19:28.514
But I certainly suppose that sometimes not too

19:28.552 --> 19:32.606
far away, but not too soon either.

19:32.788 --> 19:37.266
It will be better and their life will be livable.

19:37.338 --> 19:48.102
Yeah, it will be a sufficiently good life.

19:48.236 --> 19:51.200
And we thought about that how that would be.

19:51.770 --> 19:59.290
And then I gave him an observation task till next time.

20:03.190 --> 20:06.014
Normally with all the clients, I would have

20:06.052 --> 20:08.906
said, when do you want to come back?

20:09.088 --> 20:12.458
With depressed clients, it's better to fix an

20:12.484 --> 20:18.400
appointment rather close by because that helps them.

20:18.730 --> 20:24.330
They feel recognized and they feel healthy.

20:25.370 --> 20:26.742
I want to say something.

20:26.816 --> 20:28.880
It was very interesting to me.

20:35.010 --> 20:37.030
It was very interesting experience.

20:37.140 --> 20:39.730
I don't know if you hypnotized me or

20:39.900 --> 20:43.294
I was hypnotizing myself, but I actually got

20:43.332 --> 20:45.910
it to the world of depressed client.

20:46.530 --> 20:50.146
And when you ask the question about do

20:50.148 --> 20:52.260
you stay all day long in bed?

20:53.850 --> 20:55.846
I don't remember how I got it.

20:55.968 --> 20:58.200
I get up to wash myself.

20:58.770 --> 21:00.886
All of a sudden I felt better.

21:01.068 --> 21:03.838
And then when you ask the question, can

21:03.864 --> 21:07.500
you imagine state where you would be better?

21:08.010 --> 21:09.442
And it was amazing.

21:09.576 --> 21:22.062
It's like shifting mode. I empathize so much with your depression

21:22.206 --> 21:28.810
that you almost cannot refuse to

21:28.810 --> 21:34.666
when I propose you to have some hope. You almost can't refuse.

21:34.970 --> 21:36.260
Thank you very much.

21:46.650 --> 21:55.795
Is it all right if I interrupt. Any volunteer?

22:06.330 --> 22:07.018
Hello.

22:07.164 --> 22:11.098
So what kind of type do you want to be? It is up to you

22:11.124 --> 22:13.920
if you have someone and prepared or I can.

22:17.010 --> 22:23.326
I am anxious and I don't have any control of my thoughts, really.

22:23.424 --> 22:41.540
And I think that.Yeah but you don't have any control of yourself. No.

22:41.688 --> 22:45.918
I get lost into my world and there's just no return back sometimes.

22:51.435 --> 22:55.159
How old are you?

22:55.710 --> 23:15.534
I'm 25.

23:15.582 --> 23:23.446
I finished my studies and just graduated and I'm by myself.

23:23.518 --> 23:30.690
I'm Elicia. Hello. Nice to meet you.

23:30.690 --> 23:32.434
So tell me, how can I help you?

23:32.472 --> 23:36.034
And I interrupt immediately, how can I help you?

23:36.072 --> 23:41.802
Not so folks questions, but it's

23:41.946 --> 23:43.730
client come to me to be helped.

23:44.050 --> 23:46.360
So it's starting where the patient is.

23:46.870 --> 23:50.078
And I will transform that as soon as I can.

23:50.224 --> 23:51.674
How can I help you to help

23:51.712 --> 23:54.650
yourself and there will be some solution.

23:55.270 --> 23:59.270
But as I ask solution, focus immediately.

24:00.370 --> 24:02.980
That's quite a lot of patients who don't like that.

24:03.490 --> 24:06.400
They don't like to do the work themselves.

24:09.290 --> 24:11.874
So I started this position, which

24:11.912 --> 24:15.090
is normally the guy who's in.

24:15.260 --> 24:16.700
How can I help you?

24:18.410 --> 24:19.460
I don't know.

24:21.870 --> 24:24.730
I just get panick, but I want to be more calm.

24:25.530 --> 24:27.190
You want to be more calm?

24:27.190 --> 24:30.175
I want to control my life.

24:30.667 --> 24:41.386
You have the feeling that you don't have the control of your life. That's bad. You must be feeling very bad.

24:43.652 --> 24:46.637
What about control of your life?

24:47.210 --> 24:51.898
I sometimes feel like I'm just reading

24:51.934 --> 24:57.578
people, but I'm not with my own emotions.

24:57.614 --> 25:00.370
I'm with the emotions of other people, not my own.

25:00.480 --> 25:01.380
Oh really?

25:04.990 --> 25:07.178
If you feel emotions of other people, not

25:07.204 --> 25:10.190
your own, that must be very scary.

25:10.190 --> 25:12.190
It is.

25:14.390 --> 25:16.698
I'm sometimes fine, but then sometimes when I come

25:16.724 --> 25:20.010
in the room and there are other people around,

25:20.060 --> 25:22.710
I just feel like I'm feeling what they're feeling. You feel

25:25.616 --> 25:29.635
You come in the room. There are other people.

25:29.635 --> 25:36.082
You have this feeling that you're not in control of your emotions and thoughts anymore.

25:43.150 --> 25:45.580
Have you heard that I repeat often what the client says.

25:47.290 --> 25:49.550
Often I repeat it properly.

25:49.870 --> 25:51.520
I don't change anything.

25:53.650 --> 25:56.860
The type can only agree with me.

25:58.810 --> 26:02.798
You will see that a lot of what happens in such

26:02.824 --> 26:10.346
as short interview, is constructing the asset, talking in a

26:10.348 --> 26:13.480
way that the client can agree with me.

26:14.170 --> 26:18.218
Or if they don't agree with me, it will be

26:18.244 --> 26:22.300
in the sense that it goes better than that.

26:22.930 --> 26:40.234
I seem to suppose they are saying and sometimes

26:40.332 --> 26:47.200
repeating a little qualification, but in general repeating just

26:47.590 --> 26:49.670
words for word what the client says.

26:49.780 --> 26:55.878
Okay, so let's suppose you are in the room and there

26:55.904 --> 26:59.874
are four or five people there or how much

26:59.972 --> 27:02.550
does it need to have this feeling?

27:03.290 --> 27:04.700
I really don't know.

27:05.030 --> 27:06.270
It depends.

27:08.510 --> 27:10.170
Sometimes you have this feeling very

27:10.220 --> 27:13.746
strongly and sometimes less struggling. Not at all.

27:13.808 --> 27:14.420
Sometimes.

27:19.394 --> 27:25.975
And you have no control of that.

27:30.810 --> 27:34.354
Do you stay very long at home

27:34.392 --> 27:38.520
because you are afraid of that happening? Yeah. Okay.

27:40.990 --> 27:44.450
Well, let's suppose in some way I can

27:44.500 --> 27:47.210
help you to help yourself, because if that

27:47.260 --> 27:50.770
happens, of course I will not be there. You are all by yourself.

27:50.770 --> 27:53.618
But let's suppose that I can help

27:53.644 --> 27:55.420
you in some way to help yourself.

27:58.339 --> 28:01.794
Let's suppose I don't know

28:01.892 --> 28:04.400
we need to see each other a few times.

28:05.750 --> 28:07.220
I don't know how many.

28:08.450 --> 28:13.498
Let's suppose in schema or something you say, well, perhaps

28:13.534 --> 28:16.782
it's not gone entirely, but I can manage.

28:16.856 --> 28:21.730
Now, I will say that if my life

28:21.780 --> 28:26.050
goes on like that, it's okay with me. Yeah.

28:26.100 --> 28:27.914
It's not paradise on Earth.

28:29.114 --> 28:32.782
But that's not possible anyway.

28:32.976 --> 28:35.460
But my life can go on like that.

28:36.210 --> 28:39.250
Suppose you can say that.

28:39.420 --> 28:41.820
What would be different from them? Tell me.

28:44.410 --> 28:48.590
I don't know I guess I could just go into the room and have

28:48.700 --> 28:54.878
a normal conversation with people and feel like I can leave

28:54.904 --> 28:59.030
the room as well without going into a schedule.

29:04.250 --> 29:07.338
I suppose I could walk into a room and know that

29:07.364 --> 29:10.798
I'm able to leave the room without going into a panic.

29:10.954 --> 29:13.602
Okay, so you could go into a room with all the

29:13.616 --> 29:18.440
people and you will leave the room again without it happening.

29:23.130 --> 29:28.570
Be in control of the this panic.Is that right? Yes. Okay.

29:28.740 --> 29:31.522
So that would be if you are in a room with

29:31.536 --> 29:35.760
other people, will there be other things that are different?

29:38.010 --> 29:38.760
Yeah.

29:39.090 --> 29:42.562
I think I could just maybe trust people

29:42.636 --> 29:52.686
more because I just wouldn't be afraid.

29:52.878 --> 29:57.920
You wouldn't be afraid and you would trust people more? Yeah.

29:59.910 --> 30:03.742
Just trusting your old family and your good friends.

30:03.876 --> 30:08.126
Or would you be rather normally charged

30:08.258 --> 30:10.378
for other people too, as long as

30:10.404 --> 30:15.368
they don't do anything.

30:15.368 --> 30:23.081
You will be able to achieve that.

30:23.590 --> 30:24.340
Okay.

30:24.340 --> 30:26.340
That's a nice, isn't it?

30:29.930 --> 30:30.980
Let me see.

30:32.850 --> 30:38.160
I'd like to ask you to do something until next time.

30:43.210 --> 30:46.646
Next time we need one in compliance and tell me

30:46.768 --> 30:50.498
what happened, how you manage properly, what I will ask

30:50.524 --> 30:54.674
you to do.Then I will start by giving you

30:54.712 --> 30:59.860
two techniques that you can use in such a situation.

30:59.860 --> 31:01.860
You try one and the other.

31:04.850 --> 31:07.880
If one of both has already helped you.Ok.

31:09.830 --> 31:22.140
If neither of them works, ok.

31:22.140 --> 31:25.913
Is that alright with you? Yes.

31:26.230 --> 31:44.120
So then next time, what I want you to follow is that if ten would be a good life for you.

31:46.190 --> 31:49.486
Not only the points we have discussed,

31:49.498 --> 31:57.474
but in general, ten is achievable but sometimes it is not.

31:57.522 --> 31:59.258
Still it's okay with me.

32:00.783 --> 32:07.586
Zero would be the worst panic you have had until now.

32:10.490 --> 32:16.158
I'm proposing to do the following at

32:16.184 --> 32:21.354
night, nothing digitally before you go to sleep.

32:21.392 --> 32:24.870
But somewhere in the evening you look over

32:24.920 --> 32:27.474
your day and you sit and you ask

32:27.512 --> 32:31.770
yourself, where was I today on that scale?

32:32.210 --> 32:36.140
Was I at three or at two or five or whatever?

32:39.030 --> 32:41.158
At some point in the day, I

32:41.184 --> 32:43.740
think you will be quite low.

32:44.730 --> 32:47.110
It will be very scary.

32:47.550 --> 32:53.530
And at some point it will be more higher in that scale.

32:53.640 --> 32:59.998
What I would be very interested in is what happened when

33:00.024 --> 33:04.222
you came from very low to higher. Yeah.

33:04.416 --> 33:07.260
One thing will be, for instance, that you leave a room.

33:11.110 --> 33:18.470
But I'm almost sure that you will will find some

33:18.520 --> 33:22.094
other things that you did that also helped you, not

33:22.132 --> 33:26.620
only that, but also help you to get higher skills. Okay.

33:27.430 --> 33:30.520
Would you be ready to do that? Yes.

33:35.270 --> 33:38.346
Well, I don't know how much time do you think

33:38.408 --> 33:45.040
you will need for the next week.

33:45.040 --> 33:54.330
I really don't know. One week or two weeks? You decide with the secretary what's possible.

33:54.330 --> 33:56.330
Okay.

34:09.974 --> 34:13.994
Comments?

34:19.730 --> 34:24.510
You saw the scale.This is the same movement going way down into

34:24.560 --> 34:30.858
the problem with the client then asking preferred what would

34:30.884 --> 34:39.514
be a good life for them, talking about that

34:39.552 --> 34:45.946
and then giving an observation task. Perhaps I would

34:46.068 --> 34:51.420
like to say something theoretical about this good life.

34:54.310 --> 34:57.902
We have to talk in solution, focused, happy.

34:58.036 --> 34:59.942
We have to talk about things like

35:00.076 --> 35:04.840
the preferred future or terms like that.

35:05.650 --> 35:10.420
For me, that the future would be better.

35:12.550 --> 35:13.600
It's obvious.

35:14.535 --> 35:21.710
It is not the past which passed already. Obviously.

35:21.710 --> 35:24.438
But in fact, what would be

35:24.464 --> 35:27.150
better is the enlarged present.

35:29.550 --> 35:31.800
I would be different.

35:32.610 --> 35:38.914
And it's me, not the future me, but me

35:38.952 --> 35:44.402
myself that would be there in the future.

35:44.536 --> 35:48.758
But as me myself, who would like to be like that? Okay.

35:48.904 --> 35:53.920
So it's much more of a large present. Yeah.

35:56.930 --> 35:58.530
The present doesn't exist.

35:59.330 --> 36:03.114
As soon as I start saying I'm in the

36:03.152 --> 36:06.440
present now, part of the sentences were in the past.

36:07.730 --> 36:09.666
Part of it is still in the future.

36:09.848 --> 36:15.490
So I can say for instance, now I'm sitting

36:15.550 --> 36:20.022
here and in an hour I'll be somewhere else.

36:20.096 --> 36:23.718
That was one way of talking about present.

36:23.864 --> 36:28.494
But I can also say, for instance, now I'm living

36:28.532 --> 36:40.260
in Ostend, but in fact I think of moving.

36:53.505 --> 36:57.572
Where do I live now?

36:58.190 --> 37:00.790
No, I live in Ostend in Belgium.

37:00.970 --> 37:04.640
And this no, living in Austin in Belgium is

37:05.870 --> 37:09.500
as well two months ago as in two months.

37:11.750 --> 37:16.602
The present we are talking about is more

37:16.616 --> 37:19.818
or less elastic and comprised as part of

37:19.844 --> 37:23.034
the past and part of the future.

37:23.192 --> 37:27.802
But when we answer the miracle question, that's

37:27.826 --> 37:31.866
why the miracle question talks about tomorrow, because

37:31.928 --> 37:35.286
tomorrow in fact is part of the novel. Yeah.

37:35.468 --> 37:38.660
And it's not part of a future.

37:40.310 --> 37:41.900
It's a preferred state.

37:43.070 --> 37:51.514
Like the hours.

38:48.308 --> 38:57.942
Can you come closer and please ask me your question because I can't hear?

38:57.942 --> 39:01.898
In the first session you said to the client

39:01.898 --> 39:07.018
that you haven't much time, but in the

39:07.044 --> 39:09.106
other session, you can say that.

39:09.168 --> 39:19.358
So I'm wondering if you do that.

39:19.358 --> 39:20.371
He wants to know

39:20.371 --> 39:21.990
why in the first session you limited

39:22.050 --> 39:24.578
the time frame and in the second session you

39:24.604 --> 39:27.198
did not make a comment on the time frame.

39:27.354 --> 39:31.302
Yeah, well, because the first client was depressed

39:31.326 --> 39:34.430
client and you need to push client.

39:36.950 --> 39:40.638
You need to show that you love him and you

39:40.664 --> 39:45.200
need to show that you want to help him.

39:48.360 --> 39:51.370
Helping him to help himself.

39:52.050 --> 39:55.380
You cannot say that to the depressed client.

39:56.370 --> 39:58.810
You do that, but you cannot say it.

39:58.980 --> 40:02.734
You have to sustain him.

40:02.772 --> 40:06.358
You have to show I love you and I want to see you back.

40:06.384 --> 40:07.342
I want to help you.

40:07.356 --> 40:08.518
I want you to get out of

40:08.544 --> 40:11.674
this deplorable state and so on.

40:11.772 --> 40:14.100
Whereas the other one had in fact

40:14.670 --> 40:21.650
some kind of vague panic feelings, but

40:21.760 --> 40:26.080
in some vague, dissociated, psychotic way.

40:27.310 --> 40:28.842
I don't say she was psychotic,

40:28.866 --> 40:30.890
but it goes in that direction.

40:36.890 --> 40:40.100
The way of handling it is giving them

40:40.910 --> 40:46.558
responsibility, not too much, but giving them immediately

40:46.594 --> 40:49.470
some responsibility for the best client.

40:49.520 --> 40:51.898
If you give him ability,

40:51.994 --> 40:55.890
responsibility, he will feel lost. Okay.

40:56.060 --> 40:56.960
Thank you.

41:02.890 --> 41:06.914
With both of these clients, you intended or

41:06.952 --> 41:10.314
hoped that they would come back and perhaps

41:10.362 --> 41:14.390
talk about their experience with your suggestion.

41:15.190 --> 41:18.580
What if you're not going to see the client again?

41:19.630 --> 41:23.342
Yeah, well, I always suppose that

41:23.356 --> 41:25.660
the client will not come back.

41:27.670 --> 41:32.198
What I have done already for the second time, what

41:32.224 --> 41:36.074
I have done already is tell her that she is

41:36.112 --> 41:40.598
probably doing more than just leaving the room and that

41:40.624 --> 41:43.634
I'm kind of curious about what else she is doing

41:43.792 --> 41:47.618
that goes in the right direction for her. Yeah.

41:47.764 --> 41:49.694
So what else competence that she

41:49.732 --> 41:51.880
has done just leaving the room.

41:52.450 --> 41:53.942
So she will notice that and

41:53.956 --> 41:55.660
she will continue to notice that.

41:56.590 --> 41:59.378
She will notice that and I think

41:59.404 --> 42:01.214
she will talk with me about it.

42:01.312 --> 42:02.918
But if she doesn't come back for

42:02.944 --> 42:05.560
some reason, she will have noticed that.

42:05.950 --> 42:07.900
And what about the depressed plan?

42:14.270 --> 42:22.920
You heard that, now it is zero, but you may get deeper than that.

42:23.970 --> 42:28.200
And then you may get again to zero.

42:34.090 --> 42:37.050
I would not have asked him where are you on the scale?

42:37.110 --> 42:38.622
And he would have said I'm

42:38.646 --> 42:40.262
at twelve or something like that.

42:40.396 --> 42:45.366
And I would have said what should happen

42:45.428 --> 42:47.480
so you can say you are at two.

42:47.810 --> 42:50.660
This is a kind of question that the press won't like.

42:51.830 --> 42:53.900
I have to get to the two.

42:54.770 --> 42:56.540
You don't understand me.

42:56.990 --> 43:04.282
But if I just have to get back to zero that may

43:04.296 --> 43:09.778
be feasible. Because all I'll have to do is wash myself and

43:09.804 --> 43:13.090
shave and I may go back and I may not.

43:13.140 --> 43:15.070
But I can wash.

43:18.419 --> 43:22.192
So, maybe last question.

43:24.850 --> 43:25.780
Thank you.

44:15.950 --> 44:18.702
And then I did six years of training

44:18.776 --> 44:26.758
as a psychiatrist and that was psychoanalysis was

44:26.784 --> 44:31.450
the main and I couldn't do that.

44:31.560 --> 44:34.150
That's when I started my own practice.

44:34.470 --> 44:37.910
I started very fast to have a lot of patients

44:38.030 --> 44:40.714
and I started very fast to have a waiting list.

44:40.872 --> 44:43.222
And with my psychoanalytic training I

44:43.296 --> 44:44.940
don't do anything with that.

44:45.450 --> 44:47.700
And so I have no model yet.

44:48.690 --> 44:55.714
The books a few years later the two first books of

44:55.752 --> 44:58.846
Jay Haley and then I got a

44:58.848 --> 45:01.154
model but before I had nothing.

45:01.322 --> 45:03.360
So what I tried to do is

45:04.170 --> 45:07.440
do a psychotherapy of common sense.

45:09.150 --> 45:12.974
Common sense tells me that someone who is deep

45:13.022 --> 45:20.750
in the depression needs someone who feels with him.

45:20.860 --> 45:25.000
But once he's away, he doesn't need that anymore.

45:25.000 --> 45:28.428
So, he can get out of it.

45:28.428 --> 45:31.604
It took me some time

45:32.303 --> 45:36.224
to be able to change the jacket so easily.

45:36.224 --> 45:42.894
It took me sometime but one thing you tell me that I was resolute in this

45:42.932 --> 45:46.100
that I did not work after hours.

45:50.310 --> 45:53.278
If I had a very good impression and I thought about it.

45:53.304 --> 45:57.540
I said no when he comes back.

46:02.110 --> 46:06.714
If I didn't do that on the next client,

46:06.762 --> 46:11.130
and I was still totally down with the former client.

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