The Invisible Cost That Costs Your Business Tens of Thousands of Dollars Annually

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Hello, I'm Philip Mast.

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I'm urologist in Belgium and I had the

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opportunity to test myself the '15Minutes4Me.com'

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program, which was very helpful in my personal view

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and in my personal experience to get out of

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negativism and get positive again.

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It was very important for me.

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It broadened my horizon.

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It put me back on the rails

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and was a very, very good experience.

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It helped me in contact with my patients.

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It helped me also in my daily practice and with the

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patients, with my employees and also in my private life.

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It helped me to get positive thoughts, to

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get a new or a better feeling.

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And it was necessary to do it every day.

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And it helped because it was also

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very easy to do at home.

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It has a lot threshold and it gives excellent

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results if you persist and do it every day.

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You told me that you have several patients that you refer

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to the program, and you told me some concrete samples of

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what people told you how it affected their lives.

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Can you expand on that?

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Well, the negativism got away.

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They were thinking differently, and they were forced

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by the program to think positive and positively.

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And this has a great impact, they told me, on

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their life because they got out of the shell again

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and they were able to put some context.

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They have a positive self esteem again, and

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it was very important for these people.

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They told me also that you have to go on

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with it for quite a time, and afterwards it gets

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automatically positive thinking another way to view things.

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And if it gets worse because you don't do it

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for a while, you can put it back on and

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go again and have a good effect of the program. Yeah.

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So you mean that if someone stops a little bit

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too early and they have a beginning of a relapse

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that they can take on take on again and that

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they will go on the rails back very quickly again.

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Then you told me one other example.

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You told about someone of your patients that

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you did not only see psychological effects, but

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that even physiological energy went up quite shortly

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after they started the program. Right.

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Because I saw them while having running, and

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she looked very bad at the first time.

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And then I expected her to say that she had to go

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to the program '15mins4me.com', and she did it.

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And the weeks afterwards, she looked very much better

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and told me afterwards that it was very helpful

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to get her in the positive thinking again, and

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physiologically and physically even she was better.

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Yeah.

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So you see like a kind of double impact,

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because on one side, the program works on the

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brain patterns and the thoughts, but indirectly it has

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a kind of physiological effect on the brain.

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I think the brain works better.

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It has more power to do with

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the other things than thinking negatively.

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That was my experience too when I was getting on

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the computer to do it that for myself the negative

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ideas went away and the positive thinking gives you more

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possibilities of having your brain work better and do things

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that you need every day working, running, to do some physical

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things have envy to do these things and not got

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back in your shell.

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If you look at your patients and you would

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compare doing this daily automatic exercise with this program

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compared to going to a psychotherapist, what are the

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differences, what's more useful when according to well I

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think that the low threshold of these possibilities with

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'15minutes4me.com' is an amazing great thing

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because otherwise you go once in a week once

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in a month to a psychologist or a psychiatrist

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and afterwards you don't have follow up here you

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give your own follow up every day and that's

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helps in getting these positive effects.Okay, great.Thanks.

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Okay.

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Hello.

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Nice.

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Yeah.

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Look, we've been working on this program for a while,

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and I wanted to exchange some ideas with you to

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see if we can share some with public about the

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program, because I just want to tell you one observation.

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At a certain point, we had developed the first version

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of the program, and I invited some of my private

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patients to come at the same time to me and

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at the same time do the online program. Okay.

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So the online program and the sessions with

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you were in parallel, so to speak. Yeah.

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Because I was curious to find

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out what would be the difference.

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And then one person after two weeks, came to

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me and she said, wow, it's like having every

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day a ten minute session with you.

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Yeah, that's right. I can't imagine that.

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But that's one of the big advantages of program

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like this is that there's a little push in

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the right direction every day so you don't stop

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if one wants to change in the right direction.

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Some days are more difficult than others, and we are

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tempted not to do anything, not to do the exercise

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we should be doing or not to think about the

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things we should be thinking about what area.

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And whereas if you get this little

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small boost every day, then the good

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new habits will start much more easily.

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That's what reminds me, because one of the things that

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we put as a central key was your ID.

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That psychotherapy is not about finding a

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solution, but it's about first finding a

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solution to create a new habit.

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And at once you know how to develop a new habit.

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You still have to train it.

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Just like when I'm doing muscle training, if I would

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only train my right arm muscle, I will have a

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hypotrophic arm and my left arm will be underdeveloped.

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Absolutely.

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And that's the impression that I get with clients

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who are doing the online program, at least if

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they have the motivation to do daily exercise, because

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they get the invitation and it's up to them

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to choose if they want or not.

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But one interesting thing with this program is

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that you get the invitation every day. Yeah.

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So when you are invited every day, while that's human,

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you are inclined to respond to the invitation, whereas the

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invitation, you have to do it out of your own initiative.

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Yeah.

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And especially what I see with patients or

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people who have appeared when there is an

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anxiety attack or there is a deeper depression.

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What happens quite often in real life is

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that they will stop thinking about their progress

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and even they might cancel an appointment. Absolutely.

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But with the online system. Absolutely.

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It's like every day they get a reminder, and even

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if they would skip some days, it's like one day

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they will push the link again and they get restarted.

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Yes, absolutely.

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That's a big advantage of this kind of program.

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Yeah.

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Because quite a lot of people ask me this

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question, why would I go for an online program?

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And I found some answers because I've seen businessmen,

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for instance, who are disciplined to do daily something,

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but they don't know when the business settle the

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clients don't allow them to do a certain point,

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and that makes it easier for them.

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It's one of the observations that I made.

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Also question of a personality style.

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Some people like to confide in someone else.

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They like to talk with someone else

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and get advice from someone else.

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People like that probably will benefit a lot from

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face to face psychotherapy, but also people who want

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to take their life into their own hands and

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who say, I want to achieve this only I

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need some advice on how to achieve some guidance

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on how to achieve this.It is like compass and a map and then I will go my journey.

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Each day, it is like compasss and a map.

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Then, we are on the road of our own life.

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Every day there's some fork to take.

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So if every day you have this small input, then there's

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no chances after you say on the right way, then if

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the input comes only within a point and every two weeks.

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Yeah.

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So actually, if I try to summarize that, what

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you were saying is that personality style, that some

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people rather like to have a talk, while other

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people rather need guidance on our map.

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And some people prefer to be more self driven

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and others take it from the empathic relationship.

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Absolutely.

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That might be a difference.

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Why one has an inclination to an online program.

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Probably both are beneficial as well from an online

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program as from a face to face psychotherapy.

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But one will be more inclined to choose

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the one than the other, but both will

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be beneficial and build both cases, I think.

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Yeah, that's true.

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So you could even combine both if you want. Absolutely.

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Some other topics that I was thinking about

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is what I saw when people come online

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for the program, what happens quite a lot is

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that people seem to be quite confused about

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what's the difference between stress

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and depression and anxiety.

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And quite often we see in real psychotherapy

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practice that there is a mixture of both.

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In most cases, there's a mixture

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of anxiety and depression are very

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closely related, also neurophysiologically.

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And what happens in the brain when

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anxiety and depression is very closely related. Yeah.

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It's like similar areas in the brain. Similar biological mechanism.

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The same drugs that we use for treating anxiety. Yes.

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For treating depression.

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And in large manner, the same drugs because the processes

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in the brain are so similar. With this explain

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I remember that some years ago you told me

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about your research that you did in the hospital.

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Actually, it was on alcohol addiction. Yes.

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And one of the things that was quite remarkable when you

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told me is that you told that after several years you

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do a follow up study that those people who say that

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they got success with the treatment, that most of them also

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say that other problems than the main problem for what they

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came, like anxiety or depression, others also got solved also if

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they did not directly work on it. Absolutely.

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That was a very interesting finding, that while

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we treated people for the alcohol problems and

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they solved these alcohol problems, our programs, I

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must say, are very brief.

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People if they are hospitalized for three weeks or if

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we see them on ambulatory basis, they come to the

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hospital to speak with the doctor or the psychotherapist or

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whatever, the number of sessions is also quite low.

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It's not more than five sessions in general.

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So there is no time to speak a lot

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about their depressed state or their anxiety or whatever,

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which most people with alcohol problems also have here.

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So there's no time to treat these problems, too.

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And what we found and that was extremely

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interesting is that when they solved their alcohol

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problem afterwards, they showed that they also could

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solve their own other problems on their own.

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Once they have started solving their problems,

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they don't need anybody else.

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They don't need to come back

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for another both of therapy.

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Would you say that this is like they learn

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to learn to solve problems and this is something

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that the program like this can do. Because

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on one side they learn to learn to solve problems.

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And then my question would be how would you

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explain them that they are building these habits in

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such a way that they will not relapse?

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Yeah, that's a very interesting question, too.

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We have that question about the habits foundation.

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Well, to put it very briefly now we can discuss it

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at all the point we can discuss it a little more.

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But to put it very briefly, what happens is that whatever we

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do when we do it repeatedly, one can say that's a habit.

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Sequence of time you repeat the same, it becomes a habit.

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So we can get into the habit of having anxiety

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attacks, for instance, when some situation presents itself, or we

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can get into the habit of being depressed when there

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are too many problems facing us over there.

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So you can say that whatever we

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do when we do it repeatedly becomes

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a habit, even disconnected from the origin.

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While we start to have anxiety the

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first time or depression the first time,

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it can become a habit and treatment.

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Our self help should rather focus on breaking the old

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habit and establishing a new one rather than looking for

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establishing a new habit instead of the old habit.

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That's something that occurs in the brain.

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When we make a new habit to,put up very briefly,

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make a new habit, there are new connections that are made

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in the brain, and these connections need to be repeated.

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That's again, why a program

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like this is so interesting.

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Because each time you repeat the new habit,

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it becomes better established in the brain.

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So if you repeat it very often every day,

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for instance, it's much easier to

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establish it in the brain.

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And then when this new habit is made,

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then the old habit is still available.

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But the new habit comes instead of the old habit.

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And it's just a question of choosing.

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Do I want to be depressed or do

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I want to go to scuba now?

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It's like you have a switch and you can choose.

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It may still take some effort,

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but you can do it sometimes.

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It doesn't take any effort anymore because

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the switch stays under right position.

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Yeah, if the new habit becomes

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more sexy than the old one.

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Absolutely. Quite interesting.

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New Text

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Hi, Kathleen.

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Happy to see you here.

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And I'm very grateful that you want

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to share some of your experiences.

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You are a happy mother, a proud mother

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of three children, a happy family, and

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you have a career in international company.

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And as most people in Western society are doing, we are

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rushing because we want to be the best mother and to

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be a good employee and to be a good colleague and

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to be a good manager and to be good in everything.

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And at a certain moment, what I see as a

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medical doctor quite often and what we see with the

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'15Minutes4Me.com' program, a lot of people, they

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hit the borders of what our body can take.

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And for some people, they go and burn out.

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Others get anxiety, others will get

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depressions or other psychosomatic problems.

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In your case, it was mainly burn out.

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So that almost from one day to another, your body

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said, okay, I don't collaborate in the game anymore.

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And I'd like to have your experience.

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What I want to learn from you and also to be able

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to share with people who view is what was helpful to you.

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So what did you learn from that experience?

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And in the second stage, what did

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the program contribute to this help?

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So what in general was helpful to you and how did

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you find a program and how did that contribute to what

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you wanted to change and what you wanted to reach in your life?

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So I think if I understand correctly, Paul, your

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first question is around what did I learn from

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the overall experience, from the burn out itself I guess? Yeah.

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And especially from the experience and what helps because

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of course, it's more useful that people learn about

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what helps than the diagnostic or the medical part.

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Yeah.

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So I think certainly that what I think, which

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is very important, is that you try to prevent

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it, because if you are for the people that

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are going through it, they probably already know.

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For the people that are for the moment,

02:26.828 --> 02:31.902
experiencing very high stress symptoms, it's not a

02:31.916 --> 02:34.278
great moment to hit the wall.

02:34.424 --> 02:36.774
So as you mentioned, you don't see it coming.

02:36.932 --> 02:38.934
If you hit the wall, it's too late.

02:39.092 --> 02:41.660
Now, the good news is that you can get out of it.

02:42.530 --> 02:44.900
I'm kind of a proof of that for myself.

02:47.030 --> 02:51.200
You can get out of it if you follow the right step.

02:51.650 --> 02:54.438
I hear all the stories of people who don't do that.

02:54.584 --> 02:58.050
And I can also share that because I come across

02:58.160 --> 03:01.182
also people that have had a burnout, and then you

03:01.196 --> 03:04.278
still see that there's still some remaining issues that they

03:04.304 --> 03:07.038
are tackling, and then you still wonder, didn't you get

03:07.064 --> 03:09.618
the right help or what have you missed or what

03:09.644 --> 03:11.574
was different for me, that I don't seem to have

03:11.612 --> 03:16.738
these remaining anxiety problems or remaining stress symptoms.

03:16.894 --> 03:17.898
That's interesting.

03:18.044 --> 03:21.860
We certainly want to go deeper on that one also here.

03:22.730 --> 03:25.758
So for me, what I noticed is, okay, you go

03:25.784 --> 03:29.240
into a burnout and then you're confronted with yourself.

03:29.810 --> 03:35.202
So I had a lot of medical support, and one

03:35.216 --> 03:37.458
of the big questions that was asking me is what

03:37.484 --> 03:39.618
are you going to change in your life?

03:39.764 --> 03:42.534
That's the question that doctors are the

03:42.572 --> 03:45.522
people who try to help you. Yeah.

03:45.656 --> 03:47.550
That's quite tough because at that moment

03:47.600 --> 03:50.000
in time you're not feeling so great.

03:50.810 --> 03:53.720
Let's say that you're not in a solution state of mind.

03:54.470 --> 03:56.626
You don't find that quickly solution.

03:56.698 --> 04:00.006
So on your own, that's not so easy to go

04:00.068 --> 04:04.950
through that. Do you mean, like it's probably the most

04:05.000 --> 04:07.674
important question, but at that time it's almost like too

04:07.712 --> 04:09.474
early to answer it or too difficult?

04:09.512 --> 04:10.638
I think it's too difficult

04:10.724 --> 04:13.760
because you're not feeling okay.

04:14.390 --> 04:17.310
You don't know exactly what caused it.

04:17.480 --> 04:22.638
So you first need some relief before you can what

04:22.664 --> 04:24.822
I hear you say, it's like as if it's a

04:24.836 --> 04:27.918
process in different stages where in one stage you need

04:27.944 --> 04:32.118
to relieve the body and in a later stage you

04:32.144 --> 04:34.278
will need to address that deeper questions.

04:34.364 --> 04:35.022
Yeah, certainly.

04:35.096 --> 04:37.640
So there's certainly a resting part in there.

04:38.150 --> 04:41.886
What really helped me with the online program is

04:42.008 --> 04:45.522
it starts up quite slowly in the sense that

04:45.656 --> 04:47.934
it explains you at the start a lot of

04:47.972 --> 04:50.420
concepts about how your mind works.

04:50.870 --> 04:52.098
And those were things that

04:52.124 --> 04:53.780
I actually didn't know before.

04:54.470 --> 04:56.958
So you mean that what was helpful for you?

04:57.104 --> 05:00.186
Is this what we call in our technical words

05:00.248 --> 05:05.302
of psycho education, where we teach in simple, non

05:05.326 --> 05:08.718
medical words how the brain works and what happens

05:08.804 --> 05:11.790
when you get into either burnout or depression or

05:11.840 --> 05:15.690
anxiety so that you have an understanding almost like

05:15.740 --> 05:20.766
biologically what's happening. Because I think something is going

05:20.828 --> 05:22.710
wrong with your heart or with another organ.

05:22.760 --> 05:23.910
You get quite a lot of

05:24.020 --> 05:26.554
great explanations from your doctors.

05:26.722 --> 05:29.142
I didn't get a feeling when I had a

05:29.156 --> 05:31.820
burnout that these type of explanations were given.

05:32.390 --> 05:35.442
And actually you can consider it's an organ as well.

05:35.576 --> 05:37.290
And it works in a certain way.

05:37.400 --> 05:39.810
And the more you understand it, the more

05:39.860 --> 05:42.126
as well you can work with it. Yeah.

05:42.188 --> 05:46.342
So the understanding of the biological, let's say the simplified

05:46.486 --> 05:50.514
explanation of the biological parts of the brain, that was

05:50.552 --> 05:55.518
very useful to you. It is very useful. Certainly. And then the fact that it

05:55.544 --> 06:01.566
is daily, I think that is very crucial. Yeah.

06:01.748 --> 06:03.498
Has that been important to you, the fact

06:03.524 --> 06:05.674
that you have a kind of daily structure

06:05.722 --> 06:10.314
or support or something at home?

06:10.472 --> 06:11.814
I was in the case, I was at home.

06:11.852 --> 06:14.094
I can imagine when people are not at home

06:14.132 --> 06:18.738
yet, but still you are struggling to survive, to

06:18.764 --> 06:21.366
survive your stress into that moment in time.

06:21.488 --> 06:23.527
It's great to know that you have a 15 minutes

06:23.538 --> 06:28.578
daily help for yourself or moments of reflection and that

06:28.604 --> 06:30.702
you don't need to wait for what is it a

06:30.716 --> 06:34.566
typical one month before you see your doctor again?

06:34.688 --> 06:36.210
Two weeks or three weeks.

06:36.380 --> 06:38.540
It's in the evening again that you get

06:39.110 --> 06:41.802
some information or an exercise to do.

06:41.936 --> 06:46.074
And that is a little step.Because

06:46.112 --> 06:47.934
that's interesting what you're saying, because your

06:47.972 --> 06:51.354
experience like this daily report was important.

06:51.512 --> 06:54.030
And sometimes people who didn't follow the program,

06:54.080 --> 06:56.720
they asked me this kind of question like, but

06:57.590 --> 06:59.960
don't you need this human relationship?

07:01.550 --> 07:03.510
How can a program be useful?

07:04.250 --> 07:07.110
Some people say this must be very

07:07.160 --> 07:10.218
anonymous, although I hear some people who

07:10.244 --> 07:12.690
experience the program say the opposite.

07:13.910 --> 07:16.030
How did that relate in comparison

07:16.090 --> 07:20.094
with someone guiding you live?

07:20.192 --> 07:22.182
But you have to drive there and

07:22.376 --> 07:25.954
all the consequences because it's daily.

07:26.002 --> 07:28.220
But it's a program.

07:29.270 --> 07:30.822
I'm not saying that one

07:30.896 --> 07:32.720
can always substitute the others.

07:33.710 --> 07:37.100
I also use the face to face support.

07:37.550 --> 07:41.746
But I do see it certainly has a very big compliment.

07:41.818 --> 07:44.274
And I can also understand for people that are

07:44.312 --> 07:46.638
not in a situation that I was already if

07:46.664 --> 07:48.906
I would have known of this before. Yeah.

07:49.028 --> 07:51.270
More preventive. For more preventive that

07:51.950 --> 07:53.694
it's probably you don't want to

07:53.732 --> 07:57.622
go and see whatever psychologist, coach.

07:57.766 --> 07:59.910
That's what I hear from many people.Because

08:00.080 --> 08:02.746
you don't feel that you're ill, you don't

08:02.818 --> 08:04.494
feel that it's the moment to see them.

08:04.532 --> 08:07.314
Yet there's still taboo around it.

08:07.352 --> 08:11.142
And in that case, I think it is very easy to

08:11.216 --> 08:15.246
start off this program and you probably see even quicker benefits

08:15.368 --> 08:18.930
than in the case when you're already deep in it.

08:19.100 --> 08:22.460
Yeah, that's what I've heard from other people also.

08:23.690 --> 08:25.878
But what you are saying is that

08:25.904 --> 08:28.950
this daily support was very important.

08:29.060 --> 08:30.414
So the fact that there was every

08:30.452 --> 08:33.582
day some type of a guidance. Yeah.

08:33.716 --> 08:39.114
Also because what I also liked is that you start to

08:39.212 --> 08:43.929
kind of test to see how you are different levels.

08:44.110 --> 08:46.650
And it shows it very graphically.

08:47.210 --> 08:49.678
In my case, I think it was very confrontational

08:49.714 --> 08:52.422
to see that I was not doing great.

08:52.496 --> 08:57.882
I already knew that consultant with that as well.

08:58.076 --> 09:02.250
And then actually, you see, because of your

09:02.300 --> 09:05.550
daily follow up, you see an evolution.

09:05.930 --> 09:07.474
And I think that is fantastic.

09:07.522 --> 09:09.690
The fact that you have a kind of feedback from

09:09.740 --> 09:13.506
yourself to yourself through the program. Then you see actually

09:13.568 --> 09:17.730
that it's paying off and it's a quite quick evolution.

09:18.110 --> 09:20.298
I'm not saying you go immediately from red and

09:20.324 --> 09:22.098
to green and so not what is happening.

09:22.184 --> 09:25.098
But you see that through the actions that you

09:25.124 --> 09:30.920
are taking, you see that you are slowly but surely okay.

09:33.150 --> 09:35.242
How does it feel like you have

09:35.256 --> 09:36.814
to motivate yourself to do it?

09:36.852 --> 09:39.982
Was it difficult to of course, you get your

09:39.996 --> 09:43.790
invitation by email, but you still have to decide

09:43.850 --> 09:46.246
to take action to keep following the program.

09:46.308 --> 09:51.022
Was it difficult or was it pretty easy? It's only 15 minutes.

09:51.156 --> 09:51.454
Yeah.

09:51.492 --> 09:56.014
So I think when you're at home and 15 minutes

09:56.052 --> 10:00.082
is certainly not a lot, when you are still working.

10:00.216 --> 10:03.586
And so I've heard of other people that have followed it

10:03.648 --> 10:06.490
then even then the 15 minutes is not a lot.

10:06.600 --> 10:09.050
Do you also get feedbacks of colleagues,

10:09.110 --> 10:12.298
who follow the program and who

10:12.324 --> 10:14.074
are still more in the preventive state?

10:14.112 --> 10:15.934
In the preventive state, yeah. Maybe.

10:16.032 --> 10:19.802
Do you have some reflections on how because it's

10:19.826 --> 10:21.898
interesting to hear how you experienced it, but if

10:21.924 --> 10:25.618
you have feedback from colleagues, how they experienced it

10:25.644 --> 10:29.114
as a kind of more in an earlier preventive

10:29.162 --> 10:31.726
stage? How does it work for them?

10:31.848 --> 10:33.300
I think it's the same.

10:33.750 --> 10:36.910
The first thing that was interesting for them is to

10:36.960 --> 10:42.758
realize that they did have a problem and then that

10:42.784 --> 10:46.994
you can also work on that job because there's so

10:47.032 --> 10:50.680
many different places you can go to.

10:52.150 --> 10:55.278
But there's not a lot people don't

10:55.314 --> 10:57.950
find a lot of trusted places.

11:00.350 --> 11:01.554
There's quite a lot of people

11:01.592 --> 11:02.938
that have followed your programs.

11:02.974 --> 11:06.260
So you do have some evolution over time.

11:06.710 --> 11:10.258
There's some research that has been done so that builds

11:10.294 --> 11:13.314
kind of a trust for people to start using it

11:13.472 --> 11:17.082
because you have to get over that first fear of...

11:17.276 --> 11:19.626
Was that difficult for you when you were looking on

11:19.628 --> 11:24.054
the Internet to decide what to find, which program or which

11:24.092 --> 11:28.940
solution to trust, or was it a difficult search?

11:30.410 --> 11:33.510
I think for me, I looked at something which

11:33.560 --> 11:37.674
seemed to be built by someone who has experience

11:37.772 --> 11:41.622
in the domain and where you see that there

11:41.636 --> 11:46.518
is a continuous effort on improving the program and

11:46.544 --> 11:55.001
that also does thorough reflections on the subject itself. So, I think that was for me.

11:55.590 --> 12:00.922
Of course, there are other solutions available, but still,

12:00.996 --> 12:02.566
I think you have to do your own market

12:02.628 --> 12:04.894
research to see if it fits your needs.

12:05.052 --> 12:08.050
And for me, this was a great and easy

12:08.160 --> 12:11.362
solution for a reasonable price to sell, because I

12:11.376 --> 12:13.978
think that is an easy you don't need to

12:14.004 --> 12:18.454
buy immediately for whatever, six months or so. Yeah.

12:18.552 --> 12:21.226
You can decide one month, and if later

12:21.288 --> 12:23.026
you say no, it's enough, it's enough.

12:23.088 --> 12:26.398
If you want more, you can step in for another month.

12:26.484 --> 12:29.160
It can be immediately or much later.

12:30.030 --> 12:33.862
That's what we tried to do to leave choice. Yeah.

12:33.876 --> 12:36.154
And it's not like this membership where

12:36.192 --> 12:38.470
you didn't see the small numbers.

12:38.580 --> 12:42.610
It's not easy to so you can stop it.

12:42.660 --> 12:44.398
You can also pick it up again if you

12:44.424 --> 12:46.774
feel that you want to pick it up again.

12:46.932 --> 12:49.282
So at least you are, because the people that

12:49.296 --> 12:50.938
are using it, I would say, are in quite

12:50.964 --> 12:52.767
a fragile situation and you don't have the feeling

12:52.840 --> 12:54.931
that somebody is taking advantage of you.

12:55.224 --> 12:57.870
So you can stop it if you want to stop it.

12:57.919 --> 13:03.971
You can start if you want it. It is an open game. Exactly. That's good.

13:08.410 --> 13:10.490
Now you were telling me about that

13:10.540 --> 13:12.760
daily structure was helpful to you.

13:14.530 --> 13:15.170
What else?

13:15.220 --> 13:20.298
Or the information in the beginning, what more was helpful

13:20.334 --> 13:23.320
in the program and how did it help you?

13:24.010 --> 13:25.730
How did it impact you?

13:25.900 --> 13:28.598
What I really liked and which was not

13:28.624 --> 13:33.302
even, I think, marketed as much when I

13:33.316 --> 13:36.626
decided to use it was the body system. Yeah.

13:36.688 --> 13:39.818
The feedback. The feedback from bodies from you

13:39.844 --> 13:42.002
select who are the people around you that

13:42.016 --> 13:44.606
are going to support you through your process.

13:44.788 --> 13:48.460
And it actually helped them to know how to support me.

13:48.910 --> 13:51.086
So the fact that we teach in small

13:51.148 --> 13:56.162
videos, the family members, YouTube, your friends who

13:56.176 --> 13:58.694
are your buddies, that they got some more

13:58.792 --> 14:01.514
instruction on how to be helpful to you. Yeah.

14:01.672 --> 14:03.350
And you see, I actually didn't know that

14:03.400 --> 14:07.730
you received videos, but it did help.

14:08.755 --> 14:09.160
It was interesting.

14:09.160 --> 14:11.160
I didn't know.

14:13.430 --> 14:15.702
But I could see a change in the

14:15.716 --> 14:17.742
way that they were interacting with me. With you.

14:17.816 --> 14:22.074
Yeah, that's interesting because we try in the program because

14:22.112 --> 14:25.338
we want to see how can we help people and

14:25.424 --> 14:29.034
use their natural system and natural resources and family and

14:29.072 --> 14:32.542
friends are natural resource, and that's the goal.

14:32.566 --> 14:34.510
But it's pleasant to hear that that's

14:34.570 --> 14:36.330
really the way you experience it also.

14:36.380 --> 14:39.318
Yeah, because it also, I think, clarified a lot

14:39.344 --> 14:42.006
to them of what is going on with you,

14:42.128 --> 14:44.900
which is not something that you can always explain.

14:45.710 --> 14:47.118
It's not they are going with you

14:47.144 --> 14:48.666
to a doctor's appointment or whatever.

14:48.728 --> 14:52.566
So in that sense, I truly felt a change

14:52.628 --> 14:56.480
in their interactions with their way of supporting you.

14:56.930 --> 14:57.980
That's interesting. That's very nice.

15:04.710 --> 15:06.898
I remember that he once mentioned to

15:06.924 --> 15:10.174
me the self reflection aspects, that it

15:10.212 --> 15:13.474
helped you look different at yourself.

15:13.632 --> 15:17.398
Could you tell something about how that works for you?

15:17.484 --> 15:20.674
Yeah, I think in the self reflection, I probably

15:20.712 --> 15:23.830
didn't mention it now again, because it has become so

15:23.880 --> 15:25.618
natural for me to do this now.

15:25.704 --> 15:29.290
So I think the most important part of

15:29.340 --> 15:32.806
my 15 minutes is that it's about learning

15:32.868 --> 15:35.734
new behaviors that you then incorporate in your

15:35.772 --> 15:38.220
DNA and that you then continue to use.

15:38.550 --> 15:40.858
So the idea is not that you're going

15:40.884 --> 15:43.402
to use this and then forget about it.

15:43.476 --> 15:45.814
The idea is that you're going to change the way that

15:45.852 --> 15:48.900
you are. So self reflection can be a lot of things.

15:49.650 --> 15:52.370
One of the things that I think that I realized

15:52.430 --> 15:56.038
for myself that learning to say no in every type

15:56.064 --> 15:59.640
of circumstance is not an easy thing to do.

16:01.230 --> 16:04.606
So through the program, you learned to put

16:04.728 --> 16:07.078
more boundaries and say no to people.

16:07.224 --> 16:09.898
It's already discovering that this is I think the

16:09.924 --> 16:14.086
first step in the program is always observing certain

16:14.208 --> 16:16.414
behavior, which was interesting for me as well, because

16:16.452 --> 16:19.198
we have the idea that immediately we need to

16:19.224 --> 16:22.200
change something, which is quite difficult actually.

16:22.770 --> 16:24.298
But if you already start by

16:24.324 --> 16:26.650
observing behavior that you have.

16:26.760 --> 16:28.262
Yeah, it goes slower.

16:28.346 --> 16:30.254
It goes slower, and it's much more mindful,

16:30.302 --> 16:33.420
and you're a little bit milder on yourself.

16:34.050 --> 16:37.320
So certain behaviors, and then you

16:37.950 --> 16:39.658
decide for yourself that you actually have

16:39.684 --> 16:42.626
choices of shooting for another behavior.

16:42.818 --> 16:45.710
And I think in the first step realizing

16:45.770 --> 16:48.718
that, okay, I have difficulties to say no.

16:48.864 --> 16:52.114
Then you observe that for some time, and

16:52.152 --> 16:54.298
then you can realize, okay, what's another type

16:54.324 --> 16:56.026
of behavior that I can have?

16:56.208 --> 16:57.238
That's interesting.

16:57.384 --> 16:58.814
You always make me smile.

16:58.862 --> 17:00.946
Because when you are telling this about saying

17:01.008 --> 17:04.750
no, I was thinking did we include this

17:04.800 --> 17:06.262
as a topic in the program?

17:06.336 --> 17:08.589
And I don't even remember.

17:08.760 --> 17:11.770
So I would assume that this was

17:11.819 --> 17:14.685
some self discovery that you did by

17:14.748 --> 17:17.160
answering the questions and observing yourself.

17:17.670 --> 17:21.321
Because it's not something that we certainly

17:21.396 --> 17:22.773
not in the version that you were

17:22.811 --> 17:25.417
attending, because since then it has evolved.

17:25.574 --> 17:27.358
But in the version that you are attending, we

17:27.384 --> 17:30.480
never said that saying no is an important thing.

17:31.170 --> 17:34.294
So it seems that it's something that you are subconsciously...

17:34.392 --> 17:36.862
There are a couple of questions every day.

17:36.936 --> 17:39.898
I don't remember them by heart, which trigger yourself

17:39.984 --> 17:44.410
reflection and then you can listen for yourself, certain

17:44.520 --> 17:47.794
behaviors or things that are getting into your way.

17:47.892 --> 17:51.840
And I think this is an example of something that really...

17:52.650 --> 17:54.598
Because do you remember how long is it to go?

17:54.624 --> 17:58.560
Is it more than a year or more years?

18:00.750 --> 18:03.658
It's actually almost certainly two

18:03.684 --> 18:05.638
and a half years ago.

18:05.664 --> 18:08.278
That the program. It's interesting.

18:08.364 --> 18:10.858
I forgot that it was already so long

18:10.884 --> 18:15.250
ago because then you have a better overview

18:16.770 --> 18:18.914
what it makes on the long term.

18:18.962 --> 18:21.780
Because sometimes people say, yeah, I'm going to do.

18:22.170 --> 18:24.790
Sometimes people by mistakes, write me an email

18:24.840 --> 18:29.258
and say your course or your Elearning.

18:29.354 --> 18:32.950
But I did never design it as an Elearning

18:33.270 --> 18:36.490
because you are familiar in companies with Elearning.

18:36.870 --> 18:38.002
What's the difference between

18:38.076 --> 18:39.374
this program and Elearning?

18:39.422 --> 18:41.114
Because some people think because there's

18:41.162 --> 18:43.474
also some videos in the program.

18:43.572 --> 18:46.414
So some people think it's something like

18:46.452 --> 18:48.838
Elearning, but it's different, I guess. Yeah.

18:48.864 --> 18:54.238
Because Elearning is really a training you would train

18:54.324 --> 18:57.478
someone on, I don't know, stress management only.

18:57.624 --> 19:00.802
I'm not saying that there's no aspects in there which I

19:00.816 --> 19:06.274
would rather consider as mentoring, someone who has a lot of

19:06.312 --> 19:10.678
more experience in it, who is sharing techniques on how you

19:10.704 --> 19:17.414
can better manage your stress, how it would be easier for

19:17.452 --> 19:22.000
you to get your mind to slow down.

19:23.290 --> 19:25.900
There's a couple of techniques that I can think of.

19:28.550 --> 19:30.078
What is the big difference is that I

19:30.104 --> 19:32.914
would rather call it some kind of coaching

19:32.962 --> 19:35.610
mode because it's self coaching mode.

19:37.670 --> 19:40.666
It's you in person behind the camera.

19:40.738 --> 19:43.940
It becomes quite personal in that way.

19:44.390 --> 19:50.290
And through the questions, you trigger people to reflect

19:50.350 --> 19:54.962
and bring them to their not you're the expert.

19:54.986 --> 19:57.394
But I think there's solution part of their

19:57.432 --> 20:01.982
brain that activates the solution focused thinking areas

20:02.006 --> 20:06.094
in the brain.Because otherwise I mean people that are

20:06.132 --> 20:08.474
in this phase are in their reptile brain

20:08.522 --> 20:10.490
and they don't find solutions anymore.

20:10.610 --> 20:13.980
So that's why it's stronger, I think.

20:15.090 --> 20:19.150
I would certainly not consider it as an Elearning.

20:21.090 --> 20:23.834
I wanted to hear what was your opinion?

20:23.882 --> 20:27.094
Because sometimes people are confused. Because of course most

20:27.132 --> 20:30.300
of the things on the market are Elearning. Yeah.

20:30.630 --> 20:33.506
And it's quite difficult to explain to people what's

20:33.518 --> 20:39.182
the difference because you learn some techniques, but it's

20:39.206 --> 20:41.194
not sure that you will integrate them in your

20:41.232 --> 20:44.158
daily life and in all the different contexts that

20:44.184 --> 20:47.030
you are going to work and professional.

20:47.150 --> 20:52.114
And I seem to have impression that you could

20:52.152 --> 20:54.814
integrate quite a lot of those things as well

20:54.852 --> 20:58.020
in your private life as in your business life.

20:59.250 --> 21:01.810
Because I remember that you once told me because

21:01.860 --> 21:05.146
we did this interview in Dutch language before.

21:05.328 --> 21:09.274
And I remember that in the Dutch interview you told

21:09.312 --> 21:12.838
me something that there were things that your daughter or

21:12.864 --> 21:17.014
one of your children were taking over, all those things

21:17.052 --> 21:19.834
that you indirectly were learning in the program.

21:19.992 --> 21:22.426
And then at a certain moment, I don't know,

21:22.548 --> 21:25.310
there was an incident that on the table.

21:25.370 --> 21:28.814
Your daughter at certain moment said, let's

21:28.922 --> 21:31.774
do this or that. Several things that

21:31.872 --> 21:33.542
we learned or that we adapted.

21:33.626 --> 21:35.698
I think one of the things that we did

21:35.724 --> 21:40.150
is sometimes we ask each other to ask nice

21:40.200 --> 21:43.234
stories about the day of people determining their day.

21:43.272 --> 21:46.800
So it brings it back to the positive part.

21:47.130 --> 21:50.686
So otherwise you always focus on the problems.

21:50.808 --> 21:53.110
That's something you still keep as a ritual.

21:53.550 --> 21:55.546
I'm not saying that we're doing that every day,

21:55.608 --> 21:58.620
but at regular points in time, we ask them

21:59.370 --> 22:03.370
and the children, it's funny because they even start

22:03.420 --> 22:07.654
a conversation themselves, and they will also notice when

22:07.692 --> 22:09.862
somebody is not replying to the question.

22:09.936 --> 22:13.354
So being very mindful towards children, if

22:13.392 --> 22:15.338
my husband is, for example, not answering,

22:15.374 --> 22:17.170
they will ask very nice questions.

22:17.220 --> 22:18.322
And how is your data?

22:18.396 --> 22:23.714
You haven't said anything, so it's quite helpful.

22:23.762 --> 22:25.414
So you can translate actually.

22:25.572 --> 22:27.874
And I think that is the challenge for each one of us.

22:27.912 --> 22:30.346
You follow the program and it's not like

22:30.468 --> 22:33.142
sets of rules that you need to follow.

22:33.276 --> 22:34.882
You can then see how it works for

22:34.896 --> 22:37.980
you and then adapt it to your situation.

22:38.490 --> 22:41.866
So these things that your children, for instance,

22:41.928 --> 22:46.214
were learning indirectly, was there some conscious effort

22:46.262 --> 22:47.974
that you said, oh, I want to share,

22:48.072 --> 22:49.634
or did that happen spontaneously?

22:49.682 --> 22:50.854
How does that work?

22:50.892 --> 22:53.590
I think to me it happened at the start very

22:53.640 --> 22:57.838
spontaneously because to be honest, my day didn't consist of

22:57.864 --> 22:59.974
a lot than the things that I was learning there.

23:00.012 --> 23:02.674
So you want to share of what is

23:02.712 --> 23:04.066
going on and what you are learning.

23:04.128 --> 23:06.646
And it brings you back in a

23:06.648 --> 23:08.938
nice way because before you're ill, your

23:08.964 --> 23:11.362
children don't understand what is going on.

23:11.496 --> 23:13.318
And I think then they saw a shift as

23:13.344 --> 23:17.158
well with me learning new things, bringing it to

23:17.184 --> 23:20.770
them and creating an interest on their side.

23:20.940 --> 23:25.334
And then I think later then you reflect

23:25.382 --> 23:27.202
back on what I learned from it.

23:27.216 --> 23:31.190
And you also realize, well, if you want to prevent

23:31.250 --> 23:34.822
your kids go through this, which you certainly want to

23:34.836 --> 23:37.860
do, then there's certain things you want to teach them.

23:38.730 --> 23:41.554
And then it's about how to go about

23:41.592 --> 23:43.942
it and how to explain the concepts and

23:44.076 --> 23:46.498
in a way that children also understand and

23:46.524 --> 23:49.582
they understand much more than we usually think. Yeah.

23:49.656 --> 23:50.580
That's amazing.

23:51.570 --> 23:53.050
In the beginning because the program

23:53.100 --> 23:54.286
is not designed for children.

23:54.348 --> 23:58.486
And one day there was a father of a 13 year old.

23:58.608 --> 24:02.182
They asked me, can my son follow your program?

24:02.256 --> 24:05.734
And I said, I'm sorry, I really don't know.

24:05.892 --> 24:10.618
But if he wants to try and he needs more

24:10.644 --> 24:13.570
help, I will step in and maybe you can help.

24:13.620 --> 24:17.926
And actually, afterwards I heard that this was probably

24:17.988 --> 24:21.514
pretty much your 13 year old kid, but it

24:21.552 --> 24:25.630
seemed to have been working, and I even had

24:25.740 --> 24:29.218
recently I met someone where mother and daughter were

24:29.244 --> 24:34.438
both two children, although it's more made in a

24:34.464 --> 24:39.178
language for adults, but indirectly, it seems that it

24:39.204 --> 24:41.820
affects sometimes other members in the family.

24:43.350 --> 24:43.786
Okay.

24:43.848 --> 24:47.062
So there was the daily aspect of

24:47.076 --> 24:53.078
self reflection, and then after that, you

24:53.104 --> 24:56.006
jumped into your normal business life.

24:56.068 --> 25:01.178
And so now that you look back two years and

25:01.204 --> 25:04.898
a half later, other things that you want to add

25:04.984 --> 25:08.678
or to make the picture more complete, or do you

25:08.704 --> 25:11.320
think that you have mentioned the most important things?

25:14.030 --> 25:17.478
I think what I did realize, coming back to

25:17.504 --> 25:21.906
work and then coming into contact with other people

25:21.968 --> 25:25.914
that went through burnout or depression or had very

25:25.952 --> 25:30.022
high stress symptoms, that there is a wide variety

25:30.166 --> 25:35.394
in how people are helped and what information they

25:35.432 --> 25:38.180
have and what they know about it. Yeah.

25:38.750 --> 25:41.010
And it does seem to have a big

25:41.060 --> 25:45.234
impact on the success rate of view of

25:45.392 --> 25:50.326
feeling good and being very effective, efficient.

25:50.518 --> 25:52.606
What do you mean with wide variety?

25:52.678 --> 25:54.774
I'm not sure if I understand that.

25:54.812 --> 26:00.578
Well, there are big differences.

26:00.734 --> 26:04.978
So you have people who recover well because in

26:05.004 --> 26:09.838
your company you can compare with one of the

26:09.864 --> 26:14.474
highest burnout ratios in our company, in our industry.

26:14.642 --> 26:16.102
So there's quite a lot of

26:16.116 --> 26:18.540
people that I can connect with.

26:20.190 --> 26:24.430
And then you see differences in you have people

26:24.480 --> 26:27.480
that are absent for a very long time. Yes.

26:28.170 --> 26:31.670
Sometimes two, three years that people are absent.

26:31.790 --> 26:34.102
That makes me feel sad because most

26:34.236 --> 26:36.410
of those cases could have been prevented.

26:36.470 --> 26:40.438
And as a medical doctor, that hurts. It hurts a lot.

26:40.464 --> 26:43.738
And also it hurts me to see that when they come

26:43.764 --> 26:48.238
back that they are not always fully recovered and they have

26:48.264 --> 26:53.042
such a high risk to fall again, that's interesting because it's

26:53.066 --> 26:56.542
maybe not about the program as much, but I have a

26:56.556 --> 26:59.640
vision, but I would like to hear your vision on it.

27:00.570 --> 27:03.982
If you now after this experience, you see a

27:03.996 --> 27:07.558
person that you say this person has recovered well

27:07.644 --> 27:11.026
and has finished the process in the right way,

27:11.208 --> 27:14.950
and this person is going to have a relapse.

27:15.450 --> 27:18.334
Do you have an idea what makes you

27:18.372 --> 27:22.018
predict the difference, how you can see the

27:22.044 --> 27:25.366
difference between both groups of people?

27:25.428 --> 27:27.240
Because I see that a lot.

27:29.590 --> 27:33.458
I'm not trained as you are, but you do see

27:33.484 --> 27:35.546
a lot, even in just meeting the people and talking

27:35.608 --> 27:38.714
with them in the way they interact with others and

27:38.752 --> 27:41.078
the way that they put a lot of limitations on

27:41.104 --> 27:44.906
themselves, the ones who are going to relapse for me.

27:45.028 --> 27:52.218
So it's like they are overprotective always putting strong boundaries

27:52.254 --> 27:55.526
on what is possible and what's not possible, talking a

27:55.528 --> 27:59.702
lot about their burnout, saying that they need to do

27:59.716 --> 28:01.818
a lot to prevent a new burnout.

28:01.914 --> 28:06.580
So they're already talking it's happening

28:07.210 --> 28:09.446
or they want to convince others. Yeah.

28:09.508 --> 28:12.698
Or want to convince others and they need to be put

28:12.724 --> 28:16.578
in very protected jobs with not a lot of stress.

28:16.614 --> 28:18.938
And to be honest, that's what I always say,

28:18.964 --> 28:22.374
like, okay, where are those jobs without stress?

28:22.422 --> 28:24.810
And how do you define stress?

28:24.990 --> 28:28.626
Because I think even a librarian can have stress.

28:28.758 --> 28:31.778
So where are you going to end up if

28:31.804 --> 28:34.420
you're going to put these limitations onto yourself?

28:34.810 --> 28:36.590
So for me, there is still a lot of

28:36.640 --> 28:39.062
work for these people to do to work on.

28:39.256 --> 28:40.818
How do I see stress?

28:40.974 --> 28:42.530
How do I work with stress?

28:42.970 --> 28:46.274
And it's unfortunate to see that they didn't get

28:46.312 --> 28:50.522
these lines throughout the period that they were ill.

28:50.596 --> 28:52.358
Now I don't see it from the negative side because

28:52.384 --> 28:56.354
I also know that there are options to solve this.

28:56.452 --> 28:59.282
I really hope that these people find a

28:59.296 --> 29:04.240
way to create support for their specific situation.

29:05.290 --> 29:09.686
But it's unfortunate to see but it reminds me,

29:09.808 --> 29:12.054
a colleague of mine who is also in burnout

29:12.102 --> 29:18.220
and stress management medical doctor also, he calls that

29:19.030 --> 29:21.546
some of those people, that they have the missionary

29:21.618 --> 29:24.638
syndrome, like if they're on a mission and they

29:24.664 --> 29:28.646
want either to convert others to the way they

29:28.828 --> 29:33.110
are cured and then the other ones were overprotective.

29:33.730 --> 29:37.718
And I have the impression that is quite often and

29:37.744 --> 29:40.000
that's what we try to avoid with a program.

29:41.230 --> 29:45.510
Many ways of helping are normative.

29:45.630 --> 29:48.158
And they say how the end result

29:48.244 --> 29:52.094
should be and what someone should reach.

29:52.252 --> 29:57.160
And by putting norms, I have the impression that they

29:57.790 --> 30:01.578
stay within the problem because if you enter a burnout

30:01.674 --> 30:05.162
quite often, it's because you up to perfectionist or you

30:05.176 --> 30:07.060
want to do too much and so on.

30:07.390 --> 30:12.218
And if there's not this spontaneous self reflection that

30:12.244 --> 30:17.102
we try to facilitate partially in the program, then

30:17.296 --> 30:20.174
you are not correcting yourself to where you want

30:20.212 --> 30:23.682
to be deeply, but you are trying to adapt

30:23.706 --> 30:27.342
to a norm, just like in the traditional medical

30:27.426 --> 30:30.558
medicine where the doctor makes a medical prescription.

30:30.714 --> 30:33.374
And if you have a cancer, you have to

30:33.412 --> 30:36.602
hope that your doctor makes that medical prescription because

30:36.736 --> 30:39.066
there is a probably the best solution.

30:39.258 --> 30:42.734
And if you need antibiotics, it's probably best

30:42.772 --> 30:45.546
that the doctor prescribes the right antibiotic.

30:45.678 --> 30:52.394
But in stress related issues, if you don't find the way

30:52.432 --> 30:56.078
you want to be yourself and you cannot align who you

30:56.104 --> 31:00.050
are with who you want to be, then you will probably

31:00.160 --> 31:05.082
repeat the same mistakes and quite often it makes me suffer

31:05.106 --> 31:10.130
that so many people get in the hands of people who

31:10.180 --> 31:14.320
have good intentions in coaching others.

31:16.630 --> 31:19.574
The most risks I see quite often if they have

31:19.612 --> 31:26.258
been coached by ex burnout patients or people who have

31:26.284 --> 31:29.294
had the burnout but did not recover themselves and then

31:29.332 --> 31:33.100
start a coaching practice, I see that quite often.

31:34.570 --> 31:37.958
For instance, if I look at you now here in the

31:37.984 --> 31:45.762
interview, it's like you are grounded in your body and yourself

31:45.956 --> 31:51.680
and those people who did not yet finish the process.

31:52.190 --> 31:54.634
You see there is some tension,

31:54.682 --> 31:57.740
there is some cautiousness in that.

31:59.630 --> 32:00.620
That's interesting.

32:02.210 --> 32:02.960
Okay.

32:04.070 --> 32:06.174
Any other things you wanted to share?

32:06.332 --> 32:08.838
No, I think that's it then I thank you a lot.

32:08.864 --> 32:10.374
I'm very happy that you want to

32:10.412 --> 32:13.386
share your experience with some people who

32:13.448 --> 32:17.214
want to know more about this issues. Thanks a lot. Okay.

32:17.312 --> 32:17.640
You're welcome.

00:00.000 --> 00:03.390
I am Hadewig.

00:03.400 --> 00:07.590
And I found 15Minutes4Me on the internet.

00:07.960 --> 00:14.740
I had the diagnosis of burnout and there was not so many

00:14.770 --> 00:20.175
help to find at that moment.

00:20.175 --> 00:24.329
So I started looking myself

00:24.329 --> 00:30.210
for a self-help thing

00:30.210 --> 00:33.365
and I found it on the internet.

00:33.365 --> 00:39.267
So I filled the form in with all the questions

00:39.618 --> 00:44.130
and that made me want to start with

00:44.130 --> 00:46.000
the first part of the program.

00:46.000 --> 00:51.620
And I finished the program because I really

00:51.600 --> 00:58.585
liked to do everyday 15 minutes for myself.

00:58.575 --> 01:02.024
It gave me the feeling of bouncing back,

01:03.000 --> 01:06.337
although I felt very tired and

01:06.337 --> 01:08.851
I could not do anything in the first month.

01:09.900 --> 01:15.440
It was the first light at the end of the tunnel.

01:15.560 --> 01:17.373
You can say that

01:17.373 --> 01:23.872
the name also was interesting for me

01:24.283 --> 01:29.544
because it's something we don't do enough

01:29.544 --> 01:33.390
taking some reflection time for ourselves.

01:33.740 --> 01:38.526
And that was the thing I needed, I think,

01:38.526 --> 01:41.140
on the whole to reflect

01:41.973 --> 01:45.440
after being busy for so many years.

01:47.180 --> 01:52.800
And then the content of the program was also very helpful

01:54.380 --> 01:59.600
because it first went into the direction of

01:59.610 --> 02:02.060
What did you do today to be grateful for?

02:03.250 --> 02:07.160
And I found that it was not so difficult

02:07.150 --> 02:09.600
to find something to be thankful for.

02:09.880 --> 02:14.932
And well, if there is some one thing to find,

02:14.932 --> 02:17.600
there are more things to find, mostly.

02:18.110 --> 02:24.080
So that gave me some confidence for recovering.

02:24.580 --> 02:31.132
And well, I kept doing that and I found that

02:31.132 --> 02:33.253
there are many things that can help me.

02:33.253 --> 02:39.869
And what I found also is that when I don't do it so much,

02:39.869 --> 02:41.841
it is better for me.

02:41.841 --> 02:44.790
I'm the kind of person that does too much.

02:44.780 --> 02:47.550
And this program helped me

02:48.378 --> 02:57.400
making me ignore with some rest.

02:58.000 --> 03:00.800
And now I'm stuck.

00:00.000 --> 00:04.200
I think 15Minutes4Me has added a tremendous amount

00:04.210 --> 00:06.874
of value to my life.

00:06.874 --> 00:08.963
On a professional basis,

00:08.900 --> 00:13.100
It's helped me to proactively
prepare myself

00:13.100 --> 00:15.800
mentally, in fact, for each day.

00:17.010 --> 00:19.512
So by spending just a few minutes
every day

00:19.512 --> 00:23.408
to go through the program and to ask the questions and to consider

00:23.408 --> 00:28.320
some of the goals that I could set for myself, I was very well

00:28.330 --> 00:31.320
prepared for the next working day.

00:31.710 --> 00:33.090
I was very well prepared.

00:33.100 --> 00:35.850
In fact, I had outlined the goals that I wanted to achieve

00:35.860 --> 00:39.090
for my day, the priorities that I had set.

00:39.510 --> 00:43.450
And when the next day started, I immediately knew which goals

00:43.460 --> 00:45.760
and which parties I wanted to
work on first.

00:46.110 --> 00:50.087
So that's on the professional side, I think on the personal side,

00:50.087 --> 00:52.630
it's really helped me to think about taking the steps

00:52.630 --> 00:56.620
to really just build in those moments, to take up sport,

00:57.160 --> 01:01.090
to go for a tennis lesson, and to build in some relaxation

01:01.100 --> 01:02.770
moments with friends and family.

01:03.760 --> 01:06.310
It helped me to also plan ahead better with those things

01:06.320 --> 01:09.730
so that I had, in fact, a more optimal balance between professional

01:09.740 --> 01:12.506
and personal life.

01:12.506 --> 01:12.940
Great.

01:15.690 --> 01:17.110
That's quickly.

01:17.120 --> 01:17.920
That's fine.

01:17.920 --> 01:18.340
Okay.

01:18.520 --> 01:20.050
Yeah, I think.

01:20.060 --> 01:21.490
And we'll do the same.

01:21.550 --> 01:22.600
What else I had to know.

01:24.250 --> 01:29.830
It's still recorded, but I let it go and then I will cast

01:29.840 --> 01:30.700
afterwards. Yes.

01:33.869 --> 01:39.610
So Guita, you are attending this coaching program with me, this professional

01:39.610 --> 01:42.127
coaching program over some months, what was the value that it

01:42.127 --> 01:46.005
What was the value that you got from it?

01:46.005 --> 01:48.230
How did it impact you and your professional behavior?

01:48.480 --> 01:53.550
Well, I think through discussions together, my own mental

01:53.560 --> 01:54.990
models were really challenged.

01:55.000 --> 02:00.060
I could reflect better on how I viewed certain aspects and

02:00.070 --> 02:02.070
the professional and personal environments.

02:02.450 --> 02:07.170
And by challenging my own mental models, it gave me a fresh

02:08.070 --> 02:13.140
perspective to take back with me to my work environment and

02:13.150 --> 02:14.670
to my personal home environment.

02:15.960 --> 02:18.450
It gave me a new way, in fact, of looking and questioning

02:18.600 --> 02:21.180
all activities on a day to day basis.

02:22.400 --> 02:25.950
Furthermore, I think if I look professionally, it provides

02:25.960 --> 02:30.660
tremendous insights into the way that internal communication

02:30.670 --> 02:33.660
in your team or an organization can be more structured.

02:35.120 --> 02:38.930
I've also understood the roles better between being a leader,

02:38.930 --> 02:43.340
a mentor, or a coach, and how you can really assume different

02:43.350 --> 02:46.130
roles in different types of meetings and also which situation

02:46.140 --> 02:47.510
calls for which type of role.

02:47.520 --> 02:50.030
So I've learned to greater understand those roles and to

02:50.040 --> 02:52.400
be able to use those in practice.

02:52.970 --> 02:56.520
And how did colleagues perceive this process?

02:56.730 --> 02:58.830
When did they start to notice?

02:58.840 --> 03:00.000
And what did they notice?

03:00.000 --> 03:02.280
And did you get any feedback from them?

03:02.290 --> 03:05.370
Well, I think those are my immediate surroundings really

03:05.400 --> 03:08.130
notice that I was more focused on achieving priorities.

03:08.190 --> 03:09.570
That I set for myself.

03:10.500 --> 03:15.060
I think colleagues appreciated the greater openness in communication

03:16.140 --> 03:16.800
between us.

03:17.430 --> 03:20.593
They appreciated being asked also for their insights,

03:20.593 --> 03:24.630
for their input on the way of structuring the meetings together.

03:27.300 --> 03:31.013
I also learned far more than I would have, had I I not asked them

03:31.013 --> 03:32.610
for their insights and input.

03:33.270 --> 03:38.010
So I really realized and understood the value that additional

03:38.010 --> 03:44.480
questions and additional techniques can have in the work environment.

03:44.480 --> 03:45.830
Okay, thank you.

00:01.510 --> 00:02.230
Hi, Gita.

00:02.350 --> 00:05.180
Nice to meet you here for a short talk.

00:06.170 --> 00:08.410
You have been studying at Vlerick Business School

00:08.470 --> 00:10.866
and you are working there.

00:11.048 --> 00:15.294
And at a certain point, you started the self

00:15.332 --> 00:18.080
coaching with the '15Minutes4Me.com' program.

00:18.710 --> 00:21.260
And I'd like to hear from you.

00:22.790 --> 00:24.774
What did you do in your life

00:24.932 --> 00:27.140
as well, professionally as for yourself?

00:29.330 --> 00:31.446
Because it's a strange experience.

00:31.568 --> 00:36.330
You talk to a machine, it's like something automatic.

00:36.830 --> 00:41.178
And a lot of time people say

00:41.324 --> 00:43.606
that should be something very impersonal.

00:43.798 --> 00:46.506
But the goal is to connect you with yourself.

00:46.628 --> 00:48.500
And I would like to hear

00:49.190 --> 00:53.034
how this experience was for you. Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah.

00:53.072 --> 00:53.602
Good morning, Paul.

00:53.626 --> 00:55.040
It's great to be here again.

00:55.850 --> 00:58.580
I think if I look back at the entire experience,

00:59.270 --> 01:01.842
probably at first I was quite surprised that a lot

01:01.856 --> 01:06.498
of the interaction would be via an online tool, which

01:06.524 --> 01:09.090
in fact, immediately triggered my interest because I had never

01:09.140 --> 01:12.500
worked with such an online self coaching program before.

01:13.910 --> 01:15.942
I think the personal moments

01:15.956 --> 01:17.590
are built in on a monthly basis.

01:17.710 --> 01:21.646
I found it a really great combination because the tool enabled

01:21.658 --> 01:25.422
me just to spend 15 minutes every day reflecting on what

01:25.436 --> 01:28.302
I'd done during the day, but not only reflecting on what

01:28.316 --> 01:33.378
had happened, also taking the time to look ahead and to

01:33.464 --> 01:36.380
prepare myself mentally for the next day.

01:37.190 --> 01:40.398
So do you mean that the process what happened for

01:40.424 --> 01:43.014
you is that it helped you reflect better on the

01:43.052 --> 01:47.958
past, the recent past, and connect better with what you

01:47.984 --> 01:49.926
want to focus on in the future?

01:50.048 --> 01:52.040
Yeah, I think it was a combination of both.

01:53.030 --> 01:56.142
In fact, probably it was more future focused, I think, which

01:56.156 --> 01:58.998
was also great because it was a little bit learning from

01:59.024 --> 02:01.542
the past, but really focused on, in fact, learning from the

02:01.556 --> 02:05.022
past, looking at what is really good in day to day

02:05.036 --> 02:09.018
activities on a professional or a personal basis, keeping those in

02:09.044 --> 02:12.378
mind, and then seeing, in fact, where the difference lies in

02:12.404 --> 02:16.506
reaching and doing what you still need to do to reach

02:16.568 --> 02:19.062
and to achieve the goals. Okay.

02:19.196 --> 02:23.974
And how did impact the practical, daily

02:24.022 --> 02:27.620
way you are working or dealing with people?

02:28.430 --> 02:31.820
So you say I was more aware of my focus,

02:32.210 --> 02:36.294
so I'm curious to find out what that did to

02:36.332 --> 02:40.098
you and how that led to you interact with the

02:40.124 --> 02:42.658
world, with your business, with your colleagues.

02:42.814 --> 02:46.650
Yeah, I think it sharpened by taking a few minutes

02:46.760 --> 02:49.486
each day to think about the next day's priorities.

02:49.618 --> 02:53.778
Experimentally, it sharpened my focus for the next day.

02:53.804 --> 02:57.426
So immediately I knew what was at the top of my list.

02:57.488 --> 02:58.890
I woke up each morning with a clear

02:58.940 --> 03:01.770
goal, in fact, in mind for the day.

03:01.940 --> 03:03.210
That was something that I had not

03:03.260 --> 03:05.958
done on a regular basis before.

03:06.044 --> 03:07.806
So perhaps at moments, but not

03:07.868 --> 03:10.746
in a structured, natural way.

03:10.928 --> 03:13.558
And so doing, in fact, by being better prepared,

03:13.594 --> 03:15.102
it helped me to interact with my colleagues in

03:15.116 --> 03:16.818
a far more relaxed way because I knew that

03:16.844 --> 03:19.498
I was in control of the day's agenda.

03:19.654 --> 03:21.390
I knew what I wanted to achieve.

03:22.190 --> 03:24.402
I was more clear in front of myself as

03:24.416 --> 03:27.450
well about certain goals of meetings were planned.

03:29.190 --> 03:33.034
So it's like because your brain was more focused on what

03:33.072 --> 03:38.374
you wanted, on your priority and your outcome, you are more

03:38.412 --> 03:43.786
present with people and better able to be connected with yourself

03:43.908 --> 03:45.466
and with the goals at the same time.

03:45.528 --> 03:47.590
Something like that.Yeah,indeed. Okay.

03:47.700 --> 03:48.660
That's interesting.

03:50.010 --> 03:53.134
Did you notice either from people in your

03:53.172 --> 03:58.678
private life or in your business environment, did

03:58.704 --> 04:03.660
they observe some minor change or something?

04:04.530 --> 04:07.258
Well, the feedback that I received, in fact, from

04:07.284 --> 04:09.538
those closest to me and also those who I

04:09.564 --> 04:12.814
work with was that, one, I was far more

04:12.852 --> 04:17.206
focused on achieving what I set out for myself.

04:17.387 --> 04:19.390
And two, that I was very open

04:19.440 --> 04:21.180
to share what I was learning.

04:21.570 --> 04:23.494
And there was a lot of appreciation, in fact,

04:23.532 --> 04:27.242
there that I was sharing some of the experiences.

04:27.386 --> 04:28.980
That's interesting. Yeah.

04:29.310 --> 04:32.580
So let's now move to your other experience

04:35.190 --> 04:38.400
as a professional in a business school.

04:39.450 --> 04:41.926
You asked me at a certain moment to come

04:41.988 --> 04:48.482
for a business coaching, professional development coaching, and I've

04:48.506 --> 04:51.058
done the same school as you did. That's where we met.

04:51.084 --> 04:55.678
Also the first time at certain moment, you asked me if you

04:55.704 --> 04:58.150
would work with me as a coach, how would that work?

04:58.200 --> 04:59.314
What would you do?

04:59.472 --> 05:01.810
And some months later, you called

05:01.860 --> 05:04.462
me to start the project.

05:04.656 --> 05:07.834
And I'm curious to find out the

05:07.872 --> 05:10.442
learning process of interaction.

05:10.526 --> 05:14.530
So it was combined with the '
'15Minutes4Me.com' program.

05:14.700 --> 05:20.338
But there were these monthly sessions where you came with

05:20.364 --> 05:23.398
some questions about where you wanted to go and how

05:23.424 --> 05:26.170
to go and how to reach your professional goals.

05:27.030 --> 05:29.246
For 2 hours, we were interacting

05:29.378 --> 05:31.714
and I was listening to you.

05:31.752 --> 05:35.314
I tried to understand and to help you

05:35.412 --> 05:38.220
guide through different steps in the process.

05:38.610 --> 05:43.738
And I'm curious what came out for you

05:43.884 --> 05:48.720
and how did that happen for you? Yeah. Okay.

05:49.350 --> 05:53.086
Well, I think what came out in general of

05:53.268 --> 05:58.282
the process is a built in reflex just to

05:58.296 --> 06:00.970
prepare myself on a day to day basis.

06:01.710 --> 06:05.506
I think what I've also learned is that you can

06:05.568 --> 06:10.680
challenge yourself far more than you remember each day.

06:11.070 --> 06:13.858
So I think through discussions, it was very interesting to

06:13.884 --> 06:19.082
learn about the amount of knowledge, what I said tools

06:19.106 --> 06:22.154
and principles that can be applied, be it in meetings

06:22.202 --> 06:25.200
with colleagues, be it in your personal life.

06:25.650 --> 06:27.994
And I think in the business of our lives, we

06:28.032 --> 06:30.598
forget that there is so much that there are so

06:30.624 --> 06:34.690
many concepts and aspects to consider on a daily basis.

06:35.730 --> 06:38.998
So a few examples, I think on the one

06:39.024 --> 06:44.446
hand, professionally, and this is very evident, of course,

06:44.508 --> 06:46.238
but when one is wrapped up in a role

06:46.274 --> 06:49.634
that is between more of a market facing role.

06:49.682 --> 06:52.382
Sometimes the internal communication feels

06:52.406 --> 06:54.418
a little bit less important. Yeah.

06:54.444 --> 06:57.266
Because in your work you have a marketing

06:57.338 --> 07:02.182
aspect, but also internal communication aspect of it.

07:02.196 --> 07:03.206
Yes, indeed.

07:03.338 --> 07:05.700
So I think what I really learned was that

07:06.870 --> 07:10.546
never ever is to lose sight of the importance that

07:10.728 --> 07:16.046
internal communication role plays and the power and strength

07:16.118 --> 07:22.022
of communicating openly, regularly, consistently using a repetitive agenda

07:22.106 --> 07:24.142
of points to be discussed each time.

07:24.336 --> 07:27.122
I think if your open communication, if your internal communication

07:27.266 --> 07:29.460
is strong, then you can go to the market.

07:30.570 --> 07:31.114
Yeah.

07:31.212 --> 07:35.470
Because that's what often happens with professionals.

07:35.850 --> 07:38.602
They get a focus from their organization.

07:38.796 --> 07:41.182
For instance, if they get a focus,

07:41.316 --> 07:42.874
you have to go to the market.

07:43.032 --> 07:46.418
It's like we have a tendency to focus on our brain,

07:46.454 --> 07:51.046
on the market and we forget where the whole picture is.

07:51.228 --> 07:54.418
And it sounds like what you are telling me is

07:54.444 --> 07:58.762
that in this coaching process you reconnect better the full

07:58.896 --> 08:02.726
picture, the full process of what you had to achieve.

08:02.858 --> 08:03.442
Absolutely.

08:03.576 --> 08:05.686
So that's really some of the basics, but some of

08:05.688 --> 08:08.940
the basics that are forgotten when we're in there.

08:11.430 --> 08:17.734
What's interesting to me, I've always been fascinated that on one

08:17.772 --> 08:22.018
hand, you and I, we went to a business school, and over

08:22.044 --> 08:25.174
the years I had a lot of clients who at the same

08:25.212 --> 08:28.582
time were doing an MBA program at the Vlerick Business School and at

08:28.596 --> 08:30.470
the same time called me for a coaching.

08:30.590 --> 08:33.240
I was always intrigued to find out

08:34.830 --> 08:37.510
what's different, where is it complementary?

08:38.190 --> 08:43.442
Because why would you do two types of developments,

08:43.586 --> 08:46.018
sometimes even in the same moment?

08:46.044 --> 08:48.682
For you it was years ago that you were a

08:48.696 --> 08:51.358
student at the school and you came for

08:51.384 --> 08:54.250
coaching later, but I've seen both processes happen.

08:54.420 --> 08:57.540
So how do you see this?

08:58.290 --> 08:59.842
What's the difference and it's value

08:59.916 --> 09:02.230
of each of those components? Yeah.

09:02.340 --> 09:05.820
Well, I think probably there's no, let's say, chronological order

09:06.690 --> 09:09.322
if one has the coaching inside before you come to

09:09.336 --> 09:13.462
follow a program at Vlerick, you're very well equipped in

09:13.476 --> 09:15.682
the sense that you really know yourself well and you

09:15.696 --> 09:17.674
know your limits and how much you can take on

09:17.712 --> 09:20.710
and what you're capable of achieving.

09:21.450 --> 09:22.402
And at the same time, I

09:22.416 --> 09:25.130
think it's a fantastic combination.

09:25.250 --> 09:28.618
If you come to Vlerick because you're searching for

09:28.644 --> 09:30.578
more knowledge, in fact, to apply to your professional

09:30.614 --> 09:34.378
life, to your team, to your organization. If you

09:34.404 --> 09:37.726
couple that with a very strong understanding of how

09:37.788 --> 09:39.742
you can best interact with people and how you

09:39.756 --> 09:43.862
can best organize your life and find the balance,

09:43.946 --> 09:47.650
then I think you have a strong, willing combination.

09:48.810 --> 09:51.370
Could I summarize it like this, that at least

09:51.420 --> 09:53.398
my experience was that when I was at the

09:53.424 --> 09:57.410
school, I learned the big strategic maps.

09:57.590 --> 10:01.450
I learned where to position the business, what

10:01.500 --> 10:04.606
strategy to follow on a macro level.

10:04.788 --> 10:07.666
And I often had the impression that when people

10:07.728 --> 10:11.830
came here, they were trying to find out. Ok.

10:11.880 --> 10:14.042
Now I know the strategic maps.

10:14.186 --> 10:16.150
I know what would be good for the

10:16.200 --> 10:18.790
company, for my business unit, for my department.

10:19.110 --> 10:23.698
And now I need to learn to take the

10:23.724 --> 10:27.850
leadership to convince the people in my staff, people

10:27.900 --> 10:29.986
who are not in my staff, people that I

10:29.988 --> 10:32.842
have more or less formal influence on.

10:33.036 --> 10:35.950
And to make those things that I

10:36.000 --> 10:39.562
strategically learned in my business education happen

10:39.696 --> 10:41.770
in real daily business life.

10:41.940 --> 10:44.554
Is that more or less how you experience it?

10:44.592 --> 10:45.278
Yeah, indeed.

10:45.374 --> 10:47.710
So, in fact, a lot of our programs also

10:47.760 --> 10:50.698
concentrate on this material, but I would say that

10:50.724 --> 10:53.518
they probably do not go as deep on a

10:53.544 --> 10:56.254
personal basis, and that's where coaching really comes in.

10:56.292 --> 10:56.530
Yeah.

10:56.580 --> 11:00.034
So the real skills if I talk to you,

11:00.192 --> 11:04.078
how do I get this interaction going in the

11:04.104 --> 11:06.874
details of the interaction, and how do I make

11:06.912 --> 11:10.946
leadership with this or that employee specifically?

11:11.018 --> 11:12.060
Yeah, absolutely.

11:12.630 --> 11:14.858
In fact, as you mentioned, with strategic frameworks,

11:14.894 --> 11:17.894
if you want to be successful in implementing

11:17.942 --> 11:20.522
strategy, it's all about having your people aligned

11:20.606 --> 11:22.946
and on board with you as a manager.

11:23.138 --> 11:25.918
And of course, and then it's important to find

11:25.944 --> 11:29.350
out how do I do that with my personality?

11:30.210 --> 11:34.262
Because everyone has different strengths developed

11:34.406 --> 11:37.742
during childhood, during previous experiences.

11:37.886 --> 11:40.802
And often I have like this feeling

11:40.946 --> 11:44.066
that it's like a software upgrade.

11:44.138 --> 11:48.590
It's like when Windows, the first versions,

11:48.650 --> 11:50.590
were not adapted to the Internet, because

11:50.640 --> 11:52.342
there was no Internet in the world.

11:52.476 --> 11:54.482
And then every time there is a new upgrade,

11:54.506 --> 11:56.630
you can say, why do they need an upgrade?

11:56.750 --> 12:00.214
Because the world is changing and because you

12:00.252 --> 12:03.478
need more different interfaces with the world.

12:03.624 --> 12:08.374
And so quite often when people after the

12:08.412 --> 12:10.846
last coaching session were wrapping up, I had

12:10.848 --> 12:13.018
the impression that what they were doing was

12:13.044 --> 12:16.200
like an upgrade to the next level of

12:16.590 --> 12:20.580
leadership or professional development or something like that.

12:21.450 --> 12:24.322
That's more or less our new experiences. Yeah.

12:24.516 --> 12:29.700
And related to the coaching process,

12:31.350 --> 12:34.630
what did you learn from colleagues?

12:35.850 --> 12:38.160
How did they perceive the process?

12:39.510 --> 12:43.970
Well, I think my colleagues were not immediately aware.

12:44.030 --> 12:45.706
There was minimal impact, let's say, because I

12:45.708 --> 12:48.418
was doing it online in a very short

12:48.444 --> 12:50.170
period of time, 15 minutes a day.

12:50.220 --> 12:53.938
That was I could sometimes do that occasionally during

12:53.964 --> 12:56.722
the working day, but most often, in fact, during

12:56.796 --> 12:59.758
my private time where I could sit at my

12:59.784 --> 13:03.120
ease and quiet focus on the questions.

13:03.930 --> 13:07.438
I think that they were surprised by some of the

13:07.464 --> 13:11.210
new emails that I sent asking more for their opinion,

13:11.270 --> 13:13.678
asking more for their feedback on how we might best

13:13.764 --> 13:17.218
better structure meetings together and what was really interesting, by

13:17.304 --> 13:20.350
opening up and by asking for their feedback and input,

13:20.850 --> 13:23.986
I learned to understand them better as well. Okay.

13:24.048 --> 13:25.678
It was a reminder, in fact, of

13:25.764 --> 13:28.514
the importance and the power of continuously

13:28.562 --> 13:30.314
always checking, of course, with your colleagues

13:30.422 --> 13:33.518
which approach works best of imposing

13:33.554 --> 13:36.014
an approach or immediate style.

13:36.182 --> 13:38.998
So what you describe in here is that the

13:39.024 --> 13:42.410
process for your environment starts in a rather invisible

13:42.470 --> 13:47.578
way and I often get demands of companies who

13:47.604 --> 13:50.614
say we want to do a big coaching program

13:50.712 --> 13:53.522
where it's very visible that we are doing coaching.

13:53.666 --> 13:57.874
And my personal tendency is to start low profile because

13:58.032 --> 14:01.342
my experience is that if you announce change there is

14:01.356 --> 14:06.442
a lot of resistance and if you first develop small

14:06.516 --> 14:11.770
microdynamics of changing interactions and people after two or three

14:11.820 --> 14:14.962
months start to be surprised, hey, there is something different

14:15.036 --> 14:18.058
in the way this person is approaching me and I

14:18.084 --> 14:22.210
like it that it gets a better momentum.

14:23.310 --> 14:27.254
So the promise is lower the public promise,

14:27.302 --> 14:29.330
at least because there is no public promise.

14:29.450 --> 14:32.446
It's almost like someone steps almost

14:32.508 --> 14:34.440
invisibly in the coaching project.

14:35.130 --> 14:38.954
The manager knows, the person knows, but you don't communicate

14:39.062 --> 14:41.674
too much that you are doing it and then only

14:41.772 --> 14:45.240
after a while when people start to observe a difference,

14:45.990 --> 14:49.234
then you can start to share your knowledge and teach

14:49.272 --> 14:50.942
them something of what you learned.

14:51.086 --> 14:53.342
Is that what you mean? Absolutely. Yeah, indeed.

14:53.426 --> 14:54.022
That's good.

14:54.096 --> 14:56.074
And in fact, with many colleagues as well within

14:56.112 --> 14:58.260
the broader circle, if there was ever a question

14:59.070 --> 15:02.842
or a concern then immediately, you can indeed share

15:02.976 --> 15:07.430
a different perspective and yeah. That's great solution.

15:07.550 --> 15:10.354
Yeah, thanks a lot for sharing. You're welcome.

15:10.512 --> 15:11.140
It was great.