Nora Bateson about Gregory Bateson & Systems Thinking

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Hi, Nora.

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Great to see you.

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Nice to see you, Paul.

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So I wanted to interview you because you

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have some interesting insights about your own view

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on the world, the view of your father,

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and indirectly your family comes from a great

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tradition, like grandfather was dealing with genetics.

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Your father was one of the founding people

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trying to understand what systemic thinking is all

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about, how relationships between living organisms are structured.

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And you tried in your movie to make a summary or

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to give an impression or core message of what your father

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wanted to say because you are at the same time an

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anthropologist and a movie maker and many other things.

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And I would like to find out together with you

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in the work that you've been doing by exploring your

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own pathways in life and at the same time exploring

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the messages that your father was giving you in your

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life and what you discovered making the movie.

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I would like to find out if you

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found some messages are useful for people who

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did not study anthropology, who did not study

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psychology, were not professionals without wondering how they

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can make their lives more beautiful.

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And I'm relating at the same time like people

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who are not in a problem situation, but also

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people who are in a state of anxiety or

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depression and maybe are looking in the wrong corner

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to find solutions and also addressing family members who

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love someone who is suffering psychologically in life.

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So during the interview, I can make some more specific

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questions, but you have some core message that you learned

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from your work and work from your father.

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Let me see if I can begin to respond to you,

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because there was a lot there to respond to you.

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I think that it's important to first be very

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clear that I really didn't summarize my father's work.

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And the reason I want that to be clear

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is because to do so would have been to

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not understand what he was talking about.

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I agree.

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I think in the first sort of layer of looking at

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this, that might be an important piece to start with, because

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one of the things that we do is we try to

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find a way to describe and to analyze complex systems like

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you or me or the dog or a rainforest or a

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city, and to find some way of having a simple bitesized

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description to summarize, to synthesize, to give what's the point?

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Get to the root of it, find the bottom line.

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We have all these expressions.

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You mean like we have desire almost to oversimplify

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when we describe solar systems or human systems?

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Well, we have certainly to oversimplify, but I don't

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think we go into it thinking that we're oversimplifying.

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I think we go into it hoping that if

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we understand, we'll be able to interact better.

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Yeah, I understand you and your culture, then I will

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be able to have a better relationship with you. Okay.

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So I don't think that the impulse is in

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any way an impulse that seeks to oversimplify.

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I think it's just part of our culture.

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I mean, so much so that you would

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even say you summarize your dad's work. Okay. Right.

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I mean, it's so easy to fall into the trap.

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We all do it all the time.

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So the challenge then becomes a

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challenge of taking a risk.

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Risk of what?

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Well, of potentially not having other people understand, of

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not having a slot to put something in, of

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not being able to make a cohesive description of

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a living system like you, like me, like our

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best friends or our children or any part of

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the natural world that we're living in.

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So it's a risk because really what

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we're saying is you can't understand.

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You mean we cannot understand the other person.

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You never understand.

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But to be able to say, why not?

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Okay, why not?

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So there's you and there's me.

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And all the things that make out who you are.

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And those things change from one experience to the

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next, one moment to the next, one day to

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the next, one interaction to the next.

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You have a different sort of vocabulary of experience.

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So that the next thing that happens.

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You make sense of through a different sort of lens.

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So do you mean that rather than making an assumption,

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I understand who you are after one meeting or two

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meetings or 500 meetings that you are saying something like

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assuming that you don't understand and just open your mind

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to perceive what's happening in the moment.

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Is it something? But there's something more to it.

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Yeah, I think that's definitely helpful.

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If I approach you every day knowing that I don't know,

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knowing that I don't know, I can care about you.

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And in fact, the more I care about you,

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the more I realize that you're shifting and growing

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and changing and that what made sense yesterday.

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might not make sense today. Okay.

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So you have room to move.

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So that creates a flexibility.

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And you do things that would be responses to

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the world to me, but you do things.

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Your responses might not make sense to

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me, but they make sense to you.

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And if I had just curiosity to say,

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well, why does that make sense to you?

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What's the story about why that makes sense?

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But that is a very different way of giving you the room

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that you need to be the complex person that you are.

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And you know what?

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You might not even understand why

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you respond in some particular way.

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Doesn't that happen all the time?

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So the notion that I would understand is, well,

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I mean, there's a certain amount of arrogance in

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that you are advocating a kind of humility in

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meeting other people, even after 30 years of marriage

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or having your children growing up for so many

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years and assuming that we know them.

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And are you telling we need to have a kind of

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humility, like accepting every day again that we don't know them

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yet and that we will never know who they are.

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And we need to be open to whatever

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is happening, to experience how they are being

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and behaving in the moment itself.

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Well, there's that side of it. Okay.

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And then the other side of it is having

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our own lens and taking responsibility for that.

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Do you mean with our own lens?

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You could say your own epistemology,

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you could say your own perspective.

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I like to say lens, because that fits with my work.

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But what you do or what you say, the

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meaning that is made from that between the two

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of us happens through my understanding of it.

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What you say is what you say, but what

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I translate it into when it comes into my

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system of filtration and memory and linguistics and culture

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and all the things that come inside, there's some

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sense making that happens for me.

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So you make sense of what I say. Right.

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And actually, you are saying that it's not that important

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that you exactly know what I say, but it's important

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to be aware that we have a different understanding and

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a different meaning about what I'm talking about.

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Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

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So I can give you the room to be as complex as you are.

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Okay.

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But I also need to have that for myself,

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that I am as complex as I know.

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And so all the parts of me that are

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going to respond to you, I could be responding

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in completely strange angles to what you're saying.

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That's my complexity.

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So how it is that we actually ever communicate

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is a total mystery, mysterious because you're perceiving me

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through your lens and I'm perceiving you through my

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lens, and we both can have any type of

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reaction and behavior, and it's impossible to control.

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It's impossible to control, and it's not just us. Okay.

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So Hugh and I are sitting here and we're

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sharing words back and forth, but there's also you're

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speaking a second language or a third language.

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I don't know what English is.

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Yeah, my third language. Okay.

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Your third language.

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So your process of linguistical sense making

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is going through all kinds of possibilities. Okay.

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And then there's your culture,

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whatever cultural tide you're in.

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And that's not just what country you grew up in or

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what level of demographic your family's in, but what books you

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read and what music you listen to and who you hang

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out with and what you dream of that.

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And then there's how you feel today. Yeah.

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In the moment you might asleep and

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all the complexity of every day, where

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you came from, what was traffic like?

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Where are you going after?

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Are you going to go have a great date of your life?

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Are you going to go, oh, Christmas shopper? You are.

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Right.

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So there's a whole context that

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is in your world right now.

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And a whole context that's in my world.

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And when we sit down to communicate,

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we are making a new context.

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And actually there's three because they're you and me.

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And I'm thinking about the people who are

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watching the interview at the same time. Exactly. Right.

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Yeah.

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So there is like quite complex interaction

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because I might ask you different questions

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if it was just only for me.

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But now part of me is trying to think, will those

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of you in the EU understand what we are saying?

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Because they didn't read any books of your father,

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they didn't attend any of your workshops, and they

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probably even didn't see the movie that you made

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about your father in this movie.

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I think they're going to understand it, though. Yeah.

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Okay.

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Are you understanding?

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I think so.

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Now I'm wondering because now we

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are talking about a normal relationship.

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And a lot of people who are looking for information

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on the Internet, they do that at the moment that

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they are suffering either suffering in a relationship

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or suffering from in their own lives.

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And quite often I get emails of people who say

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I'm distressed and I feel depressed, but at the same

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time, our relationship is getting in trouble and I don't

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know where to start, how to get out of it.

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And when I listen to what you say, there is a message

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for me, at least that's my lens of listening to you.

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There is a lens that tells me they're talking about

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acceptance, accepting who I am with my complexity, accepting how

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the ones with whom I communicate with you in the

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interview with partner or spouse or a friend in my

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daily life, all of those things, it sounds to me

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at least like I need to learn to accept myself

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and the others in their complexity in order to start

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to create a more happy life and to decrease the

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pressure on my brain and my perfection is to want

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to control the world and my relationships with people.

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Yeah.

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Well, I don't think you're alone.

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Do you remember when you were a kid and there were

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those TV shows that had the jam factory or the there

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was these documents, I think they still have them.

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And there's like the jars on the assembly lines.

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And first is the jar, and then there's the label,

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and then there's a dollop of jam, and then the

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top goes on and it goes through this mechanized like.

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Yeah.

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And there's something very powerful about those images.

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Somewhere between that and the workings of the clock and

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the notion of how machines function, even just the barest

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understanding that gives us the impression that we can't control,

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that there is a way that it should be going,

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that there is a particular assembly line that is a

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path to happiness or is all our culture is suggesting

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19th century, they were building those factories where human bodies

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had to replace horses.

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And when later, these human bodies were

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replaced by machines, and they had to

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create a steady output in the factory.

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And all our society, even our companies and

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organizations, seem to be structured that way.

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Like everything should be a predictable

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and controllable part of the system. Right.

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So those ideas are very tricky because they're under

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our skin, they're underneath our dreams, they're inside our

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language, they're part of our whole way of being.

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And so when we step outside of that and we

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say, actually, I have no idea what's going to happen.

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Okay, on the one hand, you were

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just saying that's a form of acceptance.

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And I say, I don't know who I

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am from one day to the next.

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There is no way I can know who you are.

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So you can even not judge yourself if there's no idea.

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Well, is that a good idea? What?

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I'll tell you what, because I think what

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we're really saying is that there's room to

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learn, and that learning possibility, which is another

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way you could put that is evolve.

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So I think most of the time when we're stuck, when

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we're in a corner and we're trapped and we can't figure

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out how we got there and we can't figure out how

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to get out when we start with that kind of thinking,

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how did I get here and how do I get out?

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We're looking for the jam line.

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The assembly line.

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You mean that the way we are doing our

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problem solving is already part of the problem.

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It's part of the linear process that we're stuck in.

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Yes. Okay.

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So what I'm saying is that if we're looking instead

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for learning, okay, I have come to a corner.

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I need to learn something new about my whole context.

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Even if I don't know what it might be, I don't

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know what it is, but my context needs to grow.

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I need to get another perspective so

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that I can see this really.

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That process is partially acceptance.

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It's acceptance of the general patterns of life.

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Okay, yeah, but it's not acceptance of the problem.

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It's not going, okay, well, here I am. That's okay.

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It's just going to be like that.

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No, it's not me saying, okay, well, I'm never going to

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get through the call because that's just who he is.

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He doesn't understand me, and I can accept that.

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I can just accept who he is.

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Okay, that's not it.

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What I'm saying is that it's a kind

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of exploration of context, exploration of complexity that

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says, I want to learn more about this.

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There's something in here for me to find out about.

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Where is the trap?

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How does the trap work as well in a relational truck?

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I'm in the trap where I'm trapped with myself.

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Isn't it always relational? Probably, yes.

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There's absolutely no way out of that.

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No, I think I'm so glad you brought that

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up, because it's really easy to fall back on

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those ideas of acceptance and
non-judgment, but actually

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I think it's a very different ball game.

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When you start to ask, what am I learning here?

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What's happening?

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How can I explore this context

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and find out from another direction?

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Start to pull it loose a little bit.

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We get into these feedback loops where one

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of the greatest examples in systems thinking.

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I love this example.

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It's what people call systems holdback.

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Systems holdback. Yeah.

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Systems holdback is a cool thing. All right.

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Systems holdback is when I don't give you

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any information, the information that you need, because

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I think you should have asked for it.

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You won't ask for it because you think

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that I should have given it to you. Okay.

21:10.336 --> 21:15.014
Bit by bit, our relationship starts to pull

21:15.052 --> 21:18.506
apart because we are not putting anything in.

21:18.568 --> 21:20.738
We're both holding back. All right?

21:20.764 --> 21:22.418
So this happens all the time

21:22.564 --> 21:26.500
in marriages, in employment situations, in

21:26.950 --> 21:32.006
relationships between parents and children.

21:32.188 --> 21:37.446
And once you have a name for it, once you can say,

21:37.568 --> 21:42.334
Ah, this pattern, this is the pattern we call this console.

21:42.442 --> 21:47.480
Because of course, if you don't put information in

21:50.130 --> 21:53.220
the context starts to dry up and blow away.

21:53.730 --> 21:55.200
There's nothing there.

21:55.950 --> 21:57.850
There's no ecology. Okay.

21:57.900 --> 22:00.074
If you think about what we're developing

22:00.122 --> 22:03.470
in our conversation is an ecology.

22:03.590 --> 22:05.486
Ecology of collaboration.

22:05.678 --> 22:08.014
An ecology of conversation. Yeah.

22:08.112 --> 22:13.906
An ecology of what's possible for us to talk about,

22:14.088 --> 22:19.978
to explore together, where our ideas might bounce off each

22:20.004 --> 22:24.850
other, what we might learn from each other. Okay.

22:24.900 --> 22:26.758
Because what I could learn from you and what

22:26.784 --> 22:31.330
you could learn from me might be completely accidental.

22:31.830 --> 22:33.118
You could say something.

22:33.264 --> 22:35.340
Yeah, it's all about before. All right?

22:37.630 --> 22:39.806
But if you neither one of us puts any information

22:39.928 --> 22:44.666
in there's no garden here, there's nothing growing there.

22:44.788 --> 22:45.842
Let's give it a try.

22:45.916 --> 22:49.910
When I'm perceiving what you say through my lens,

22:50.290 --> 22:54.002
something comes to my mind that while people in

22:54.136 --> 22:58.190
conversation are in a relation, are evolving this information.

22:58.300 --> 23:00.698
There might be two reasons, at least to

23:00.724 --> 23:04.502
my understanding, how you look at it is

23:04.516 --> 23:06.194
that one reason could be that they even

23:06.292 --> 23:08.680
not agree or that they are withholding information.

23:09.430 --> 23:09.902
Maybe.

23:09.976 --> 23:12.470
And that might be an interpretation of me, maybe because

23:12.580 --> 23:17.582
some part of inner dialogue within themselves is not open,

23:17.656 --> 23:20.560
maybe because of stress or any other issue.

23:20.890 --> 23:23.042
And the other thing is that once they

23:23.176 --> 23:25.562
know that there is information to make, a

23:25.576 --> 23:27.880
decision, to bring, anything to share.

23:28.510 --> 23:31.430
Both are two different sections.

23:31.750 --> 23:34.482
Am I still too much in the linear

23:34.626 --> 23:39.746
toolbox thinking when I ask this question? No.

23:39.868 --> 23:42.950
I think that those things co-exist.

23:43.450 --> 23:48.218
And I think there's probably moments when we

23:48.244 --> 23:52.262
do both or we give information that we

23:52.276 --> 23:56.282
don't even know if it's useful. Right.

23:56.356 --> 24:00.326
Or if it's too much or it's too little

24:00.388 --> 24:03.950
or it's the wrong flavor from the wrong direction.

24:04.570 --> 24:10.420
I mean, we messed this up, but that's okay, too.

24:11.410 --> 24:16.878
I think there's room for us to make

24:17.024 --> 24:19.830
and in fact, it's important to make mistakes.

24:20.150 --> 24:22.782
Yeah, that's a pretty important thing.

24:22.916 --> 24:27.318
And at least even now, I can sense that by

24:27.404 --> 24:30.678
trying to kick out part of my own thinking and

24:30.704 --> 24:34.398
trying to tune in on what you say, it gives

24:34.424 --> 24:39.874
a different feeling of openness, a different curiosity.

24:39.922 --> 24:41.446
It was the word

24:41.518 --> 24:50.410
like I said, let's try and think.

24:50.460 --> 24:52.222
What will the reader or the one

24:52.236 --> 24:54.118
who use the interview think about it?

24:54.144 --> 24:56.542
Will it be useful and just letting myself

24:56.616 --> 24:58.980
be open to what you are telling me?

25:08.050 --> 25:14.330
So when we did our seminar last week, we

25:14.380 --> 25:18.854
were looking at that kind of curiosity as a

25:18.892 --> 25:23.750
form of really an expression of caring and affection.

25:24.610 --> 25:28.250
And that, on the one hand, when you

25:28.300 --> 25:38.480
give somebody that curiosity, it's an intimate process.

25:39.770 --> 25:41.046
Okay. Yeah.

25:41.108 --> 25:55.534
Because it says you're complex, you're interesting.

25:55.692 --> 26:04.420
I want to learn what makes you learn.

26:05.230 --> 26:10.466
And at the same time, it's an opportunity to

26:10.528 --> 26:14.270
expand that notion of that intimacy and that caring.

26:15.010 --> 26:20.690
Because we live in a world that's full of people

26:20.740 --> 26:24.100
that are as complex as you 7 billion of them.

26:25.510 --> 26:26.162
Right.

26:26.296 --> 26:28.614
Not to mention all the living creatures

26:28.722 --> 26:33.520
and the incredible ecosystems that they create.

26:38.870 --> 26:43.014
I think if I were to try to be

26:43.052 --> 26:46.566
clear with this, because we were speaking in our

26:46.628 --> 26:50.118
seminar about the idea of practicality and this is

26:50.144 --> 26:52.530
all really beautiful, but how is it practical?

26:53.210 --> 26:59.100
And getting back to the assembly line

26:59.490 --> 27:02.506
image of the jars, there's a certain

27:02.568 --> 27:06.778
kind of practicality that we're looking for

27:06.864 --> 27:08.830
in that sense. Can I have a step

27:08.880 --> 27:10.786
by step instead of face by face?

27:10.848 --> 27:13.870
I want a tool for this and a formula for that.

27:13.920 --> 27:16.834
And I want to know because I want to find my

27:16.872 --> 27:21.120
way to the other side of this, whatever it is. Okay.

27:24.190 --> 27:31.798
But what I'm actually saying is that this developing

27:31.954 --> 27:36.774
a way to begin to see and perceive the

27:36.812 --> 27:41.070
people and the systems around you in their complexity

27:41.390 --> 27:46.230
is like it's not the map of the marathon.

27:46.730 --> 27:49.820
It's getting ready. Okay.

27:50.990 --> 27:59.538
It's a kind of position for response, a

27:59.564 --> 28:02.610
mental position, but also an emotional position.

28:02.780 --> 28:06.080
It's definitely an imaginative position.

28:06.950 --> 28:12.020
It's not just intellect that we're operating with here.

28:12.350 --> 28:14.154
That's something I could see to deal with

28:14.192 --> 28:18.114
in your movie when you are filming certain

28:18.272 --> 28:21.354
aspects of how your father was dealing with

28:21.392 --> 28:24.390
a flower or a small element of nature.

28:25.190 --> 28:30.690
I could sense this openness and curiosity. Yeah.

28:30.860 --> 28:32.250
And it's affection.

28:32.690 --> 28:35.490
It's a very affectionate curiosity.

28:36.410 --> 28:39.260
And actually, it's got a lot of humor in it.

28:39.710 --> 28:43.602
And there's plenty of room for all

28:43.616 --> 28:46.040
the tragedy and difficulty of life.

28:47.090 --> 28:51.810
But alongside that, the larger

28:53.090 --> 28:56.660
picture, which is not beautiful.

29:00.150 --> 29:00.658
Yeah.

29:00.744 --> 29:07.774
But not beauty like roses and sunsets, the

29:07.812 --> 29:12.790
type of beauty that is the incredible awe. Okay.

29:12.840 --> 29:16.066
When we were just talking a second ago about your

29:16.248 --> 29:19.198
lenses and my lenses and how in the world do

29:19.224 --> 29:23.350
we ever make communication with all the possibilities of confusion?

29:24.030 --> 29:26.760
Okay, that's useful. Yeah.

29:27.150 --> 29:28.402
You see what I'm saying?

29:28.536 --> 29:33.022
There's so many different things happening, and

29:33.036 --> 29:38.446
yet somehow it can land, and we

29:38.568 --> 29:40.380
know that we're making contact.

29:41.490 --> 29:43.800
So how does that work?

29:44.250 --> 29:45.970
And isn't that incredible?

29:46.410 --> 29:47.890
And so that's what I mean.

29:47.940 --> 29:50.638
It's beautiful, it's hard, and

29:50.664 --> 29:51.742
it will break your heart.

29:51.816 --> 29:56.820
And it's funny and it's impossible to understand.

29:57.810 --> 30:00.602
And you can spend a lifetime on a few lines

30:00.626 --> 30:07.858
of poetry or understanding of one flower, because when you

30:07.884 --> 30:10.570
tell me that what comes through my lens is.

30:10.620 --> 30:16.214
well, she is lucky that she was born with Gregory

30:16.262 --> 30:20.270
Bateson as a father, because when she was a baby,

30:20.390 --> 30:25.990
she already learned these lenses of curiosity openness.

30:26.490 --> 30:29.974
And most people are not born in that kind of

30:30.012 --> 30:34.090
family because we are born in this more mechanistic culture.

30:34.770 --> 30:37.140
Do you have from your lens something

30:37.470 --> 30:40.706
to say without being too practical?

30:40.778 --> 30:46.894
Because that's not what you want to those who

30:47.052 --> 30:53.982
did not learn that with the baby spoon.

30:54.006 --> 30:55.850
I don't know how you say that in English.

30:55.850 --> 30:57.850
Do you understand what I mean?

30:58.790 --> 30:59.670
Yeah, I do.

30:59.720 --> 31:04.950
And at the same time, I think we all know people

31:05.120 --> 31:09.380
who are just naturally like that, or we've seen them.

31:12.750 --> 31:14.854
Have you ever seen footage of

31:14.892 --> 31:18.550
Picasso making sculpture or painting pictures?

31:20.130 --> 31:25.210
Well, it's so great because he's so amused.

31:26.790 --> 31:30.418
He's obviously in relationship to whatever it

31:30.444 --> 31:34.066
is that he's part of creating. Okay.

31:34.128 --> 31:36.430
But he's part of creating it.

31:36.600 --> 31:38.782
It's also creating him.

31:38.916 --> 31:46.734
And you can invincibly see that, of course, he's

31:46.902 --> 31:49.442
Picasso, and we can hold him up on a

31:49.456 --> 31:52.670
pedestal and say, but he was a genius.

31:55.970 --> 32:00.642
But I think some of us have a grandmother who was

32:00.776 --> 32:04.422
like that or a piano teacher that was like that

32:04.496 --> 32:07.458
or the baker at the corner who

32:07.604 --> 32:10.460
just has that way of living.

32:11.330 --> 32:14.886
So are you saying that if you want to learn

32:14.948 --> 32:22.782
this without becoming too practical by choosing to interact, maybe

32:22.856 --> 32:25.602
more, or be more open to someone who is already

32:25.676 --> 32:29.502
closer to his way of living, a role, a family

32:29.576 --> 32:33.558
member, even the paper on the corner, that might be

32:33.584 --> 32:38.058
a help or a step to move in that direction? Yeah.

32:38.144 --> 32:40.198
I mean, I think that my dad

32:40.294 --> 32:45.006
certainly did not explicitly teach me, okay.

32:45.068 --> 32:49.794
Or my sister or my brothers, he didn't teach us.

32:49.832 --> 32:51.870
He just went about living his

32:51.920 --> 32:54.358
life the way that he lived.

32:54.394 --> 32:56.394
He didn't teach us how to enjoy

32:56.492 --> 33:00.260
and be curious only by example.

33:01.250 --> 33:04.640
So it just wasn't that position. Right.

33:05.570 --> 33:12.154
And lots of people are that's not unique in his case.

33:12.192 --> 33:19.958
I think what was unique was the kind of educational

33:19.994 --> 33:25.210
background that he had to apply to his perspective.

33:25.530 --> 33:28.498
So you can have a broad perspective and

33:28.524 --> 33:31.630
you can admire the complexity of another human

33:31.680 --> 33:34.954
being or an ecosystem, and so can I.

33:35.052 --> 33:38.640
The difference is he can actually talk about it.

33:40.870 --> 33:41.342
Right.

33:41.416 --> 33:42.870
And he can make it explicit

33:42.930 --> 33:45.890
in terms that we're psychological, biological,

33:46.750 --> 33:50.030
in communication theory, in ecology.

33:50.470 --> 33:52.718
He could give a lot of different

33:52.804 --> 34:00.542
possible references that were scientific. Still, there

34:00.556 --> 34:02.260
was no science for this.

34:03.550 --> 34:06.174
There was cybernetics and there's systems theory,

34:06.222 --> 34:08.870
and now there's complexity theory and chaos.

34:09.190 --> 34:15.170
Still, we don't really have a way of studying.

34:22.010 --> 34:23.757
I'm saying that because you don't

34:23.793 --> 34:25.206
have to be an expert, okay?

34:25.268 --> 34:26.610
There's no experts.

34:27.290 --> 34:31.340
At the same time, the curiosity leads you into

34:32.030 --> 34:35.742
one path of study and then another one.

34:35.815 --> 34:38.358
And some of those paths might be academic and

34:38.384 --> 34:41.525
some might be professional and some might be just

34:41.588 --> 34:45.378
studying another human being that you love or a

34:45.404 --> 34:50.686
kind of study of your own life or poetry

34:50.757 --> 34:56.362
or whatever Belgian independent film.

34:56.505 --> 34:58.580
It doesn't matter where you start.

34:59.390 --> 35:01.280
Everything is linked.

35:01.730 --> 35:07.722
So curiosity, the most easy to understand keyword that

35:07.796 --> 35:13.842
can help someone with stock to find a focus,

35:13.916 --> 35:16.698
to write this openness in this real position.

35:16.844 --> 35:20.250
I think the key word is context.

35:21.530 --> 35:22.702
What is context?

35:22.786 --> 35:27.018
Because that's a beautiful word and I've studied that in

35:27.164 --> 35:30.474
a lot of my professional training, but I'm not sure

35:30.512 --> 35:35.060
if people know what that word relates to.

35:35.630 --> 35:38.406
Well, that's a tricky question you just asked me.

35:38.528 --> 35:41.240
I was hoping I could get away with it. Okay.

35:43.290 --> 35:48.886
Because of course, the context is going

35:48.888 --> 35:52.438
to include the pattern of relationships, the

35:52.464 --> 35:55.090
pattern of all the patterns.

35:55.410 --> 35:57.960
Could you tell a story to make it more clear?

36:00.210 --> 36:01.466
I do like stories.

36:01.598 --> 36:05.350
Let me see if I can think of a good context.

36:07.290 --> 36:08.734
Are there any stories that

36:08.772 --> 36:10.810
actually aren't about context?

36:13.330 --> 36:15.100
I can't think of one right now.

36:20.690 --> 36:23.394
So if you start with any piece

36:23.432 --> 36:28.098
of information about your world, about your

36:28.124 --> 36:32.840
life, anything, just give me an example.

36:34.790 --> 36:36.380
Any piece of information.

36:38.150 --> 36:40.662
I drove here today at a Toyota. Okay.

36:40.736 --> 36:42.680
You could say that maybe more.

36:45.090 --> 36:48.406
I was afraid to arrive late in the interview today.

36:48.528 --> 36:49.740
Okay, perfect.

36:50.910 --> 36:54.086
So I was afraid to arrive late in the interview.

36:54.278 --> 36:56.230
Let's look at the context.

36:59.470 --> 37:04.142
So you have to figure out how to get here,

37:04.276 --> 37:07.418
when to leave, which meant you had to complete all

37:07.444 --> 37:10.214
the things you were doing on that side and get

37:10.252 --> 37:13.862
your family and your partner and everybody squared away so

37:13.876 --> 37:16.514
that you could have the afternoon to do this thing.

37:16.672 --> 37:20.498
And you were my friend saying, oh, no, she's on

37:20.524 --> 37:23.560
vacation and she's giving me this hour and I need.

37:26.390 --> 37:30.210
I always respect your time and my GPS.

37:34.290 --> 37:36.730
I didn't know if the upgrades would

37:36.780 --> 37:40.142
work to get here in time.

37:40.286 --> 37:43.990
Meanwhile, it's Christmas shopping and Brugge and everybody's here

37:44.040 --> 37:45.958
and the roads are all closed and they're one

37:45.984 --> 37:48.310
way and they're both with these crazy horses.

37:51.730 --> 37:55.058
That's one beginning of today's context. Okay.

37:55.144 --> 38:01.194
But then there's also a memory.

38:01.242 --> 38:03.698
You are thinking back on moments when you were

38:03.724 --> 38:07.430
late and moments when you weren't late.

38:08.410 --> 38:13.334
I've been blaming myself about being late, other people who

38:13.432 --> 38:18.054
taught you that it wasn't okay or what the cultural

38:18.102 --> 38:22.060
messages are about being what I might think of you.

38:27.590 --> 38:29.970
So that would give us a kind of a context

38:30.650 --> 38:40.140
I think if you start to look at the context.

38:46.390 --> 38:49.658
Have you seen the context related to

38:49.684 --> 38:54.366
a different way to how I proceed

38:54.438 --> 38:57.220
more happily towards a more beautiful life?

39:03.750 --> 39:06.118
It just gives me information to work

39:06.144 --> 39:08.714
with, to play with, to expand.

39:08.822 --> 39:10.918
And I think a lot of times what we do when

39:10.944 --> 39:16.560
we get upset, if we start to see binaries or we

39:17.010 --> 39:21.286
divide things into and we limit the amount of information and

39:21.288 --> 39:30.160
we say, well, she's from California, she won't care finally.

39:32.690 --> 39:34.698
And so I'll be as late as I need to be

39:34.724 --> 39:39.390
and I'll just get there, then we might limit the possibilities.

39:39.890 --> 39:41.154
And I wouldn't have thought

39:41.192 --> 39:42.886
of that type of perspective.

39:43.018 --> 39:47.060
It wouldn't come to my mind, but you know what I mean.

39:47.510 --> 39:50.130
It's a very anonymous way of dealing with this.

39:50.240 --> 39:56.360
What we could be saying is casting blame actually

39:56.930 --> 40:00.438
is a really obvious example of not seeing the

40:00.464 --> 40:05.910
context when we cast blame in any direction.

40:06.290 --> 40:07.890
What it really means is that we're not

40:07.940 --> 40:12.594
looking at all the interrelationality of it and

40:12.632 --> 40:18.510
seeing what contributes to any particular action.

40:20.210 --> 40:20.960
Okay.

40:21.890 --> 40:27.414
So it's easy to get into that kind of thinking

40:27.572 --> 40:34.160
and there's no way to lift out of that.

40:35.810 --> 40:40.006
What's the solution in casting blame?

40:40.198 --> 40:42.440
When are you going to punish someone?

40:44.090 --> 40:46.580
No, it doesn't actually change anything.

40:47.990 --> 40:53.166
You do not punish yourself right from there.

40:53.228 --> 40:55.580
Moving to this open position

40:57.290 --> 41:00.306
sounds like incredibly difficult.

41:00.428 --> 41:03.390
I think it is incredibly difficult because it's much more

41:03.440 --> 41:08.118
easy to say I want to take distance from my

41:08.144 --> 41:10.230
life and I go on a holiday for one week

41:10.280 --> 41:13.098
and when I'm in the sunshine, I reflect differently on

41:13.124 --> 41:16.762
my life and then it's easier to look at context.

41:16.906 --> 41:19.714
But if you are in a day to day pressure, it's

41:19.762 --> 41:23.718
like believing that you have to be tomorrow at nine at

41:23.744 --> 41:26.590
your work and that your boss might be angry.

41:26.650 --> 41:29.070
And at that point it becomes very

41:29.120 --> 41:31.410
difficult to step out of this reality.

41:32.630 --> 41:34.294
Well, I think you have to practice.

41:34.402 --> 41:35.720
I think we all do.

41:37.070 --> 41:39.966
You can start with the tiniest thing. Okay.

41:40.028 --> 41:42.030
Just think about your jeans.

41:42.530 --> 41:43.726
Where does those jeans and

41:43.798 --> 41:46.640
how did those jeans come and end up with you?

41:48.050 --> 41:49.446
Where did they come from?

41:49.568 --> 41:50.818
Where was the cotton grown?

41:50.854 --> 41:51.786
Where did they get?

41:51.848 --> 41:53.058
Who designed them?

41:53.204 --> 41:54.814
How did they get distributed?

41:54.862 --> 41:57.774
How did you end up with the Euro that you went

41:57.812 --> 42:03.114
in and you bought them with and begin to open up

42:03.212 --> 42:10.638
our ability to see the complexity of any little thing, the

42:10.664 --> 42:15.380
food on the table, where did it come from?

42:16.550 --> 42:19.760
What is the meal of that about?

42:20.150 --> 42:23.902
What is the context of that one plate

42:23.926 --> 42:27.186
of food, like the diving into the

42:27.188 --> 42:29.946
curiosity for anything that's present in the moment.

42:30.008 --> 42:31.700
And just practice, okay.

42:32.510 --> 42:40.918
And it might not help, but it can hurt and it

42:40.944 --> 42:44.580
might make the food taste better or the genes more fun.

42:45.090 --> 42:49.294
I think it will definitely build our appreciation for life

42:49.332 --> 42:54.902
in general whether or not it will get us out

42:54.916 --> 42:58.302
of our depression or solve the world's problems, I don't

42:58.326 --> 43:01.720
know, but it might make it a little more fun.

43:02.830 --> 43:03.938
Yeah, that's true.

43:04.024 --> 43:09.530
And to a certain extent, anything that shifts your perspective

43:09.910 --> 43:13.960
can bring yourself into a new dynamic of life.

43:15.950 --> 43:16.494
Exactly.

43:16.592 --> 43:20.000
It will shift something and that will shift something.

43:20.570 --> 43:23.358
That will shift something, and then

43:23.504 --> 43:26.120
something will be less stuck. Yeah.

43:26.630 --> 43:30.306
There is one story that you told in the seminar that was

43:30.488 --> 43:34.890
very intriguing me, and it was a story about a knife.

43:35.270 --> 43:40.398
And you told me that you had been asked how

43:40.424 --> 43:44.454
did your father deal with crisis and that you first

43:44.552 --> 43:49.374
didn't remember him ever facing the crisis, and then you

43:49.412 --> 43:52.114
told, actually, yes, there was a crisis, but I didn't

43:52.162 --> 43:54.690
pursue this as being a crisis.

43:55.010 --> 43:57.440
Is there a story that you could share?

43:57.950 --> 44:00.162
Well, I think not today, because I

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think we already have said so much.

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But that's another much more

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material. The question of practicality.

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I would like to say that I have never found

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anything more practical in my life than developing my own

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possibilities to see more of the context that I'm in.

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It always helps me to be able to understand

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more, to respond in more beneficial ways, too.

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I really can hardly say more because it's

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the most practical thing I've ever tried myself.

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So the trick is there is no formula.

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There is no step by step.

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There is no technique.

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There is no trick.

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There is no nothing like that.

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There's only your own ability and how

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you learn about the world around you.

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And so that is not an easy fix.

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It doesn't deal with one system.

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It deals with the whole system of your life.

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Chances are if something's going wrong in

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one relationship that you have probably there's

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other ways in which that the little off

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balance thing that you're experiencing is servicing.

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But it might not look like it, but it might

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be in your diet or in your driving habits.

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There's something. Do you mean that even making

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a change in the driving habits or in the diet

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might lead to a change in the relationship?

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Because it's like opening up your unconscious

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way of looking at patterns in general. Yeah.

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I think if you open up the way you look

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at patterns in general, all sorts of things start.

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So we look at these things and we

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say, how do we solve this problem and

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that problem and this problem and that problem?

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And actually all those problems are stemming from something

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in the integrity, the way that you're working in

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your life, and those are the symptoms.

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So it's like when you feel you're stuck in one problem

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by starting to look at the context and all the interactions

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around you and the problem, it might help you extend your

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view and see that this pattern that makes you feel stuck

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is present on different levels and that you could find a

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solution on a lower level and it will transpose to different

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experiences or if you have a problem in one place and

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you start to look at what are the patterns in the

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context of my life? What you might notice is that you

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don't even notice what that issue is anymore.

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It's just obsolete.

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You don't have to solve the problem.

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It just becomes obsolete. Okay.

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Yeah, I can hardly really remember

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any incidence of solving problems.

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In fact, what happens is they just become obsolete.

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You just seem in the mirror

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mirror and you go, oh, yeah.

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When I was looking in the context

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of this big I had that problem.

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But when the context was this big, that

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thing I don't know what happened to that.

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It's no longer in the picture. Right?

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So more likely that's what happens.

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It's not so much about finding the key and solving

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the mystery as it is about seeing a different world.

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And when you see the world differently the

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possibilities that you have are so much wider

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that the stuck things just kind of dissolve.

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Does that make sense?

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Yeah, it makes sense. Great. Thanks.

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Is there some last message that you

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want to share with people or maybe

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could you say something about the movie?

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What can people find in the movie?

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What's useful for them?

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Well, that's for them to find out.

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I would never say that someone else gets but the movie

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an ecology of mine is available on DVD in Europe.

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It's available on Amazon.

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There's an Italian version, but the one

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on Amazon has English subtitles, French, Spanish,

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German and then in North America.

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It's available, too.

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Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Good. Thanks a lot.

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Thank you.