REBT by Albert Ellis with Debbie Joffe Ellis

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Welcome today on a special occasion.

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We have a very special guest here today.

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May I introduce you?

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Debbie Joffe Ellis.

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She is the wife of Albert Ellis, the founder of REBT.

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And today we have a special occasion to talk with

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her about REBT and in a larger sense, about psychotherapy

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and not only about what psychotherapists can do for the

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patient, but also what you can do for yourself, what

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your family members can do for themselves, what people can

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do to help themselves in their lives when something goes

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wrong and we get stuck in whatever type of problem

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in our lives.

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So, Debbie, very happy to have you here.

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We have met several years ago.

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First time we met when your

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husband was still alive, very shortly.

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And then we met in Belgium.

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We met here in California.

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And I'm very honored that you accepted my invitation

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when I told you that I would have liked

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to interview Albert, your former husband, and I would

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have liked to hear his words.

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And you are the one who is the closest to his mission.

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And that's why I'm happy to have you here as a guest.

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Oh, it's my pleasure.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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So let's first say maybe can you introduce briefly who

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you are and how is your relationship to REBT?

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In a brief sense, yes.

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So I'm a licensed psychologist.

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My license is from Australia, so I have

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a license as a mental health counselor from

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New York, where I live now. Yeah.

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So now you're living in New York now?

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I live in New York.

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You marry in New York or it

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happens, and then you stay there.

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And that is now home.

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That is my home.

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And I know because you are a very

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truthful supporter of your husband, of Albert, and

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you really want to keep on going

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his mission.Indeed.

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We were like a unit.

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We were like one in some ways.

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And I do not mean for one second unhealthy codependence.

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I mean, we shared the same goals.

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We shared the same ethical values.

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We shared the same passion for doing as much as we

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can to educate people about how they can help themselves to

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suffer less emotional misery and to enjoy life more.

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This gift of life that goes so quickly.

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To summarize, your main mission together with Albert

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was to help people, help themselves, liberate themselves

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from misery, pain, depression, anxiety, whatever kind of

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misery that occurs in life. Yeah.

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And my husband created his approach of rationally

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emotive behavior therapy, which is the pioneering cognitive

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approach with that mission in mind.

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And so that is the tool that he

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used, that I use, that we use together,

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that many, many people can easily grasp.

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One doesn't have to be an intellect

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or an academic to understand its principles.

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One of the many genius aspects of my

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husband was that he was able to translate

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theory and concepts into easy to understand language.

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And so indeed, my mission continues to be that

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to contribute to people who are willing to put

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in the effort themselves, to help themselves overcome and

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prevent emotional disturbance, and then to maintain emotional stability,

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which doesn't mean no emotion.

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It means healthy emotion.

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Healthy emotions.

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That's the goal, to help people get rid

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of unhealthy emotion and not create it, because

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that was amazing about your husband, Albert, that

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he could do sessions in 20 minutes.

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Very short sessions were almost you would

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say 20 minutes is not enough to

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establish a relationship with a client.

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And I remember that when I saw him

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do sessions, it was like, wow, within the

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first second, as an outsider, you might be

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shocked because he had a quite special personality.

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Definitely.

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But definitely. Yeah.

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And as an insider, when you talk to

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the patient, the patient felt so deeply understood

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and so deeply respected and accepted.

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And accepted, which is a part of REBT.

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One of the aspects that's very unique in

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the field of cognitive therapy belongs to REBT.

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And that's the strong

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emphasis on unconditional acceptance.

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Unconditional acceptance as well of oneself as the therapist

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or the helper, whatever type of helper it might

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be towards the client or the patient. Yeah.

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Ideally, the therapist will model it

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as well as demonstrate it.

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And in addition, as appropriate, to guiding the client

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to work on having that for themselves, to work

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on having that unconditional acceptance for others, including the

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people who act in ways that the client detects,

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even if someone might be seen as an offender

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or someone who did harm to you, at least

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in your perspective or in reality.

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Also, there this unconditional acceptance. Yeah.

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Which doesn't mean, oh, I don't

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care that they abused me.

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No, my husband would teach and I teach.

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Certainly it's healthy not to like bad behavior,

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but in REBT, we separate the behavior from

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the essential worth of the human.

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An unconditional acceptance means you accept the person unconditionally

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as a being of worth, but that doesn't mean

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that their behavior merits the same regard and fight

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for justice if someone's abusing you, but for your

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inner steadiness and stability and peace and your emotional

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well being, realize that the person who abused you

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is a fallible human being who acted wrongly.

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But essentially, they are a human being.

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Fallible, but worthy. Okay.

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Worthy.

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Which is hard for people to grasp the time.

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And what's the secret of this acceptance?

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Because that's one of the key elements that

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REBT is build on, what's the secret?

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Because if ordinary people who are not educated in REBT

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or don't have this capacity of experience for them, it

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can be like, no, I don't want to accept, because

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accepting for some people would mean, at least in their

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perception, that they agree with the reality.

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And what's the secret? Yeah.

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The secret to wanting to develop more.

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Well, it's not a secret, by the way.

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No.

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In this one life we have, do we choose to enjoy

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it to the maximum, or do we want to suffer?

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We have a choice about how we think and how we feel.

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We may not be able to choose outer circumstances. Yeah.

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So the reality is in this life, there's

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a high probability that other people will act

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in ways that we do not like.

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So,we have a choice to say they

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shouldn't do that, which won't change them.

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No, it doesn't work.

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It doesn't work, does it?

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Or to work on adopting the attitude that they like.

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I as a person myself, can make mistakes, that many things

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influence the choices we make and the things we do.

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That if they've behaved in a

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certain way, there's a reason.

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It could be they think they're right.

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It could be they were taught that's how they should be.

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It could be, frankly, that

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they have disturbed brain chemistry.

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You mean even on a biological level? Definitely.

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That is not something they are responsible

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for learning to deal with it.

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But they cannot change the chemistry immediately. No.

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And if a person doesn't perceive that they have a

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problem, they won't consider changing the way they behave because

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we have to learn to deal with it.

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The person receiving bad behavior.

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Well, we don't have to, but if we don't, we'll suffer.

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So there's a choice.

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It's like there's no norm.

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We don't have to do anything.

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But we can make a choice if we want to have a

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joyful life, more joyful or less joyful or more painful, even.

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And depending on that choice, we can consider

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the choice to learn to accept the reality

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and the person, but not the behavior.

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If the behavior is offensive, if the behavior is so good and

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to do what we can to change it if we can.

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If that means calling police, if that means legal

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action, if that means just cutting off from the

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person, whatever action is appropriate is encouraged.

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Yeah.

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And at the same time, REBT, which to me

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is the most holistic of all the therapy at

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the same time as taking appropriate action in order

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to prevent ulcers and cancer and illness caused by

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stress, to keep reminding ourselves.

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Number one, I can stand what I don't like.

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I just don't like it.

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This is part of life.

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Number two, if I had their brain chemistry, their background,

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and I thought the stinking way they think I would

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do what they do and to work on.

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And this is a preventative of

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one's own bitterness and pain.

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To work on not liking what

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they did, that would be crazy.

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And also, I'm not saying love the person, but to

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not allow oneself to succumb to destructive emotions against them,

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which my husband used to give this expression that holding

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on to bitterness or anger is like taking poison and

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waiting for the other person to die.

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He would say that a lot.

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And so for the sake of one's being and also compassion.

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To have compassion.

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You were there at the end of my husband's life.

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That was a hard period.

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You were present, I remember at a lecture

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at the same conference as we're at.

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But in 2005 when my husband was telling people

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what was going on, and he was being treated

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brutally by people in his work life.

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And he did what I'm suggesting here.

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He hated what they did.

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And we had a lawyer and we were trying to get justice.

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So you fought in the actions. Yeah.

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But at the same time, he didn't hate these people? No.

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Did he really succeed? 100%.

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You're talking from the person who was

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with him 24 hours a day.

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Except when I had a shower, I went to the toilet.

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We were as one really.

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And there was one particular afternoon I remember when

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something that was done was quite disgusting behavior.

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And it had been going on for a

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while, and I couldn't hold back my tears.

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I mean, I wasn't kind of.

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But they were falling.

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And he saw my sadness.

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And he said, Debbie, Debbie, you're

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such a good REBT teacher.

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You're such a great REBT therapist.

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But now you're not practicing if you're so sad.

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He said, accept, accept, accept.

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They have to act the way they act

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when they think the way they think.

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Debbie, they have disturbance in their

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thinking and in their brain.

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You didn't say that sarcastically.

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And it's very interesting.

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Today I heard a psychiatrist speak,

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and more and more people are

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talking about brain chemistry and neuroscience.

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And the fact of the matter

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is we are so chemically influenced.

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And so my husband was saying even all his professional

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life, even before we could scientific research, and he had

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genius, that he was a visionary in some ways and

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not as an excuse for bad behavior, but as a

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contributing reason that when they think the way they think,

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which could be influenced by both what they learned and

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their biology, then they're going to act this way.

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So did he practice what he preached?

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100%. The last 15 months of his

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life, his body was a torture chamber.

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A few months after you heard him speak

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here at the conference, he succumbed to pneumonia.

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And the doctors told me he was going to die then.

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This was May 2006.

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May, you heard him December 2005.

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So six months later, after working very

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hard, teaching and fighting for justice and

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writing and he had aspiration pneumonia.

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And the doctors prepared me.

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And he had to have a tube put in

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for the last 15 months of his life.

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No more food, no more water in his mouth because

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there was a danger of it going into his lungs.

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So everything by tube.

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He had osteoarthritis for years.

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He had this and that.

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His body was a torture chamber.

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And yet he fought to survive. Why?

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To keep on working, to keep on contributing.

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Well, the last 15 months, except for a few weeks

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before he died, when I took him to the home

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environment because he was on his way out.

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But he was first in the hospital for months, and then

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we would go to rehab, so he would try to get

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stronger, so we would go home, then a relapse hospital.

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And yet students would come to the

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hospital, and he would speak to them.

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Yeah, I heard from several students that he

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almost evacuated the hospital to be able to teach.

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The medical staff gave permission.

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And even though he was weak, he taught.

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He answered questions.

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A psychology class, PhD in psychology, every year from

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Katho University in Kortrijk in Belgium, comes to New

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York and they visit clinics and here and there,

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and they would always see out.

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And so a year in advance, they organized it.

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So he had organized it the year

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before, and they were in New York.

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This is just months before he died.

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They came in March.

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Every year they come in March, and he was in

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the rehab and then in hospital, he had a relapse.

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And I said, oh, let's cancel.

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And he said, no, tell the students

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to come here to the hospital, okay.

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The morning of the afternoon they were going to come

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he looked particularly pale and so sick.

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I said, Ellis, let's cancel.

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He said, no.

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So they came.

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And again, the very weak he was

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talking and explained, he said, not questions.

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The first man, he was, one of the professors said, Dr.

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Ellis, we're honored that you have us here.

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Thank you.

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But Debbie told us how ill you are.

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Why didn't you cancel?

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And first my husband said, in order to

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continue to teach the gospel according to St. Albert.

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And then he said in sincerity, so that

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you, the people listening, can understand REBT better,

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because when you do and when you apply

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it in your life, you'll have better lives.

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And when you have better lives, you'll be able

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to help more people more of the time in

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more effective ways to have better lives. Beautiful.

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Wow.

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That's so touching.

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The answer now, the questions that evening, the

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doctors came in every morning when you're in

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the hospital, they take blood of the patient.

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And they told me, the doctors, the enzymes in

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the blood that we took this morning showed that

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this morning your husband had a heart attack.

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I can only imagine how sick

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he felt that he wouldn't cancel.

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And that was his spirit.

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And that was his determination.

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And I share this. Yes.

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Because I adore him and I admire him.

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And he's a role model, and he's a role model.

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He wanted to be that way in order to

19:24.372 --> 19:27.634
demonstrate to people that he wasn't just telling them

19:27.672 --> 19:30.598
what they should do or a philosophy, but that

19:30.624 --> 19:35.390
it was possible to have determination and to push

19:35.450 --> 19:40.594
yourself to do what you chose was proactive and

19:40.632 --> 19:43.750
productive and particularly helpful to other people.

19:43.800 --> 19:45.898
He really pushed to help other people.

19:45.984 --> 19:47.906
And it's like very authentic.

19:47.978 --> 19:52.138
It's like 100 million care of himself in order to

19:52.164 --> 19:55.042
help people who later will be helpers of other people.

19:55.176 --> 19:57.178
That's a lot of benefit. Yeah.

19:57.264 --> 20:00.994
It's like using your own courage to take your life

20:01.032 --> 20:06.134
in hand in order to realize the long term objectives

20:06.302 --> 20:09.758
that maybe are the reason why you are getting angry

20:09.794 --> 20:12.634
on something, because quite often people get in trouble because

20:12.672 --> 20:14.870
they consider things to be injustice.

20:15.050 --> 20:17.302
But if you fight against the injustice in

20:17.316 --> 20:19.318
the wrong way, you will never change it.

20:19.464 --> 20:21.994
But if you do what your husband was

20:22.032 --> 20:26.770
doing, it's like you turn your energy towards

20:26.940 --> 20:28.920
what you can change in yourself.

20:30.090 --> 20:33.370
And so it's like over your lifetime,

20:33.690 --> 20:37.846
you contribute to create a better world. Exactly.

20:37.968 --> 20:39.782
And that was one of his goals.

20:39.926 --> 20:43.138
You contribute to creating a better world, and

20:43.164 --> 20:47.460
you contribute to cherishing the gift of life.

20:48.270 --> 20:52.810
So many of us can easily take things for granted.

20:53.250 --> 20:56.674
And really, it's a gift to be alive and to be

20:56.712 --> 21:00.634
alive and have good health or to be alive and not

21:00.672 --> 21:03.802
have good health, but still be able to enjoy some things

21:03.876 --> 21:07.200
in life, focus on what still is good.

21:10.030 --> 21:13.514
He cherished life and wanted us as many

21:13.552 --> 21:16.910
humans as possible to do the same thing. Yeah.

21:17.020 --> 21:20.510
Now I understand when I saw him last

21:20.560 --> 21:25.322
time, 2005, because I had seen several times

21:25.396 --> 21:27.590
before when he was in full health.

21:27.700 --> 21:31.420
But in 2005, there was something so amazing.

21:33.490 --> 21:35.930
When he came in, he looked

21:35.980 --> 21:40.170
like tired, like empty, like broken.

21:40.350 --> 21:43.730
And I thought, how will he do?

21:43.900 --> 21:46.698
And then suddenly they brought the first patient.

21:46.854 --> 21:49.190
And so I was like, wow.

21:49.300 --> 21:51.666
Because he was demonstrating his approach

21:51.738 --> 21:53.870
with a volunteer for the contract.

21:54.730 --> 21:57.194
And at that moment, you could see that

21:57.292 --> 21:59.870
he connected with his true mission and his

21:59.920 --> 22:03.150
energy, and he was fully alive.

22:03.330 --> 22:04.346
He was.

22:04.528 --> 22:08.140
And something that a lot of people didn't know

22:08.890 --> 22:14.730
was during that particular time, he was in agonizing

22:14.790 --> 22:18.460
back pain in addition to everything else.

22:19.090 --> 22:23.750
So you're seeing him come like that. Correct.

22:23.920 --> 22:25.746
Because he was impacted.

22:25.878 --> 22:30.558
And yet when he was in that role of helping

22:30.594 --> 22:35.810
another person, that was his focus, that was absorption.

22:36.850 --> 22:39.806
He had more energy than a 15 year old kid.

22:39.928 --> 22:42.062
I was married him, I can tell you.

22:42.196 --> 22:43.600
Yes, he often did.

22:44.950 --> 22:48.206
We had an age difference, but it is really.

22:48.388 --> 22:52.458
Oh, but he looked fairly young in so many aspects.

22:52.494 --> 22:54.470
Even when he was over 90s, his

22:54.520 --> 23:00.230
vitality was something spectacular to behold.

23:01.090 --> 23:04.686
So we started with his idea of acceptance.

23:04.878 --> 23:08.222
But there's more to REBT I wanted to know.

23:08.296 --> 23:11.670
But that is one aspect of REBT that isn't

23:11.730 --> 23:15.738
emphasized as much in the other cognitive approaches.

23:15.894 --> 23:19.226
They wouldn't disagree with it, but in REBT, we

23:19.288 --> 23:24.066
push it because it's again, part of this holistic

23:24.138 --> 23:26.798
approach that we're not just pushing for you to

23:26.824 --> 23:31.002
use cognition, it's cognition and taking care of emotions,

23:31.146 --> 23:32.930
the heart and the head.

23:33.100 --> 23:36.938
This acceptance aligns you with the reality of

23:36.964 --> 23:39.338
life, in other words, and our ability to

23:39.364 --> 23:42.950
be compassionate for ourselves and others. Okay.

23:43.060 --> 23:46.734
And by the way, coming back to science

23:46.782 --> 23:50.450
and research and back brain chemistry, solid research

23:50.560 --> 23:54.880
done in recent years has shown that people

23:56.050 --> 24:07.818
who express appreciation, who experience compassion, have a

24:07.844 --> 24:12.858
stronger immune system, create more endorphins and all

24:12.884 --> 24:16.050
those other juicy, healthy chemicals in the brain.

24:16.730 --> 24:19.938
So even you could say for selfish reasons, it

24:19.964 --> 24:22.902
would be good to create compassion for others.

24:23.036 --> 24:25.520
Indeed, of course, that's not the real.

24:29.790 --> 24:31.510
Whatever it takes for you to be

24:31.620 --> 24:33.686
compassionate to someone who's suffering.

24:33.758 --> 24:35.686
I don't care, actually.

24:35.748 --> 24:38.050
What that's new for me that you

24:38.100 --> 24:41.438
explained me so clearly how this acceptance

24:41.594 --> 24:45.840
leads to compassion for self and others. Yeah.

24:47.710 --> 24:51.866
Because I think many people do not

24:51.928 --> 24:55.538
accept acceptance because they are afraid that

24:55.564 --> 24:57.426
it's not true to their values.

24:57.498 --> 24:59.714
But here you see that acceptance can be

24:59.812 --> 25:03.806
a starting point for compassion to work.

25:03.988 --> 25:07.122
Exactly.

25:07.206 --> 25:11.022
My purpose and my mission is to continue my husband's work of REBT.

25:11.106 --> 25:14.380
That's why I wanted to have you here this time.

25:15.670 --> 25:18.602
Other people who studied with him, not everyone,

25:18.676 --> 25:21.494
but other people are combining it with more

25:21.532 --> 25:25.730
general CBT, whatever helps other people.

25:25.780 --> 25:33.150
I'm not judgmental in any way, but what I

25:33.200 --> 25:46.198
presented is the unwatered, down, undiluted REBT. As I

25:46.224 --> 25:52.334
mentioned earlier, the holism of it, the holistic manner

25:52.382 --> 25:57.826
of it, the fact that it does take into

25:57.888 --> 26:03.914
account our ability to practice choice and create healthy

26:03.962 --> 26:06.900
emotions according to the way we think.

26:07.230 --> 26:09.178
Now, something else I was going to mention.

26:09.264 --> 26:10.894
I've lost my train of thought because

26:10.932 --> 26:13.042
we have some background noise going on.

26:13.116 --> 26:13.714
That's no problem.

26:13.752 --> 26:16.810
You see, I'm not making myself miserable about it.

26:16.920 --> 26:20.158
I accept that it's something I do. Exactly.

26:20.244 --> 26:22.714
And that I can stand what I don't like.

26:22.752 --> 26:23.926
I just don't like it.

26:23.988 --> 26:27.098
You see another person who would hear this background

26:27.134 --> 26:29.458
noise now and you're making the video, and if

26:29.484 --> 26:33.178
they were perfectionistic, they could easily allow themselves to

26:33.204 --> 26:35.554
get angry by thinking it shouldn't be like this.

26:35.592 --> 26:38.554
And I can't stand and it's going to spoil everything.

26:38.712 --> 26:40.466
But I practice REBT.

26:40.538 --> 26:42.502
And so I say, what's the worst thing

26:42.516 --> 26:45.562
that can happen if it's a lousy interview? So it is.

26:45.636 --> 26:47.854
And actually, people don't listen

26:47.952 --> 26:50.066
because of the background noise.

26:50.138 --> 26:51.490
They listen because of content.

26:51.600 --> 26:52.500
Let's hope.

26:54.630 --> 26:56.302
I think I remember.

26:56.496 --> 26:59.842
Unless someone did not apply RBTE on themselves yet.

26:59.976 --> 27:00.982
Right? Exactly.

27:01.116 --> 27:03.670
Which is why partly I'm doing

27:03.720 --> 27:06.000
this with you to inform people.

27:06.330 --> 27:07.882
But now I remember what I was going

27:07.896 --> 27:12.050
to say about this issue of acceptance.

27:12.110 --> 27:14.518
So I'm continuing to present my

27:14.544 --> 27:16.534
husband's work because I love it.

27:16.572 --> 27:17.662
Because I love it.

27:17.736 --> 27:20.160
Because that's what I do.

27:20.970 --> 27:28.258
And some friends, people who admired my husband, people

27:28.344 --> 27:32.374
of his generation, colleagues and friends who loved and

27:32.412 --> 27:37.462
respected him, who liked me very much, said to

27:37.536 --> 27:41.110
me in various ways, Debbie, it is great.

27:41.160 --> 27:42.758
You're doing what you're doing, and you're

27:42.794 --> 27:44.282
doing a great job, blah, blah, blah.

27:44.366 --> 27:49.994
But Debbie and I'm thinking of one man in

27:50.032 --> 27:54.770
particular, great in the field in his own respect.

27:55.570 --> 27:59.738
He said, Debbie, I used to argue with Albert about this.

27:59.764 --> 28:01.658
I used to argue with your husband about this.

28:01.684 --> 28:03.158
And here's what I recommend to

28:03.184 --> 28:06.798
you, Debbie, drop the unconditional acceptance.

28:06.954 --> 28:08.562
It's not realistic.

28:08.706 --> 28:10.850
How can you tell someone who's been

28:10.900 --> 28:15.230
raped to unconditionally accept the person raped?

28:16.090 --> 28:17.090
And you know what?

28:17.140 --> 28:18.290
I said thanks.

28:18.400 --> 28:23.306
But no, Al never taught and I do not

28:23.368 --> 28:30.160
teach that you should be or even can be

28:30.670 --> 28:34.778
100% unconditionally accepting all of the time.

28:34.924 --> 28:38.462
Now, maybe some rare people who would

28:38.596 --> 28:42.942
deserve to get acknowledged as saints.

28:43.086 --> 28:45.722
Someone else, Mandela in his later

28:45.796 --> 28:48.270
life, maybe, or Albert Ellis.

28:48.390 --> 28:49.610
Yeah, that's true

28:49.660 --> 28:51.410
when I listen to your stories.

28:52.510 --> 28:54.580
In any case, there are some.

28:54.970 --> 29:00.098
But what Al encouraged and what I encouraged is to do the

29:00.124 --> 29:04.720
best we can to be more that way, more of the time.

29:06.250 --> 29:09.050
Like a learning process, a draw process of a year.

29:09.100 --> 29:10.430
So yeah.

29:10.600 --> 29:16.300
And what can help motivate the person is their willingness

29:16.398 --> 29:20.380
to realize that it's number one in their self interest

29:21.250 --> 29:24.050
that they can choose to live the rest of their

29:24.100 --> 29:32.906
life hating or and here comes compassion again. They can

29:32.968 --> 29:37.514
work on realizing that only a wounded person would do

29:37.552 --> 29:42.100
what they did, not to like or love the person,

29:42.490 --> 29:48.318
but to understand that in some way they were damaged

29:48.354 --> 29:49.826
or they wouldn't have done what they did.

29:49.888 --> 29:51.710
Something that maybe science has

29:51.760 --> 29:53.102
to discover in the future.

29:53.236 --> 29:55.670
And it's not excusing what they did.

29:55.720 --> 29:59.538
And it's not saying that there not be consequences.

29:59.634 --> 30:00.760
Hopefully there.

30:01.150 --> 30:04.154
But to understand that each human is

30:04.192 --> 30:07.420
a complex system of many things.

30:07.870 --> 30:13.514
And to not waste energy dwelling in hate because

30:13.612 --> 30:16.720
it breaks your own life, it poisons yourself.

30:17.050 --> 30:18.820
Like what I said before.

30:20.830 --> 30:24.434
And there's a liberation that many people who

30:24.472 --> 30:28.298
have forgiven people who've done bad things to

30:28.324 --> 30:31.358
them experience, they rise above it.

30:31.384 --> 30:32.742
They see the fallibility.

30:32.826 --> 30:36.278
They realize they too have probably made mistakes, if

30:36.304 --> 30:40.910
not that one, and that's the human condition.

30:42.010 --> 30:44.874
My husband was treated so badly,

30:44.982 --> 30:47.500
he refused to hate the people.

30:48.070 --> 30:51.234
He hated what they did and fought for justice.

30:51.342 --> 30:55.206
So he didn't experience rage, healthy anger

30:55.278 --> 30:57.522
that motivated him to take action.

30:57.666 --> 31:00.314
He didn't experience depression, which

31:00.352 --> 31:02.282
would have paralyzed him.

31:02.476 --> 31:06.134
The deepest sadness he ever felt in his life. Why?

31:06.292 --> 31:08.694
Because it was sad to be. That is sad.

31:08.742 --> 31:11.320
But sadness can help you out.

31:14.510 --> 31:17.190
Sad about being treated badly.

31:18.830 --> 31:22.122
It really cuts you off from the human experience.

31:22.256 --> 31:24.366
But sadness, you still can function.

31:24.488 --> 31:26.218
Depression can debilitate.

31:26.314 --> 31:29.094
Maybe that's interesting to elaborate more for the

31:29.192 --> 31:33.606
listener to our interview, because I think most

31:33.668 --> 31:36.990
people don't know the difference, that negative feelings

31:37.370 --> 31:39.930
can be positive and limited. Correct.

31:40.100 --> 31:43.206
And REBT is very clear about that.

31:43.388 --> 31:46.700
Rebt is the wonderful education tool.

31:47.330 --> 31:54.006
So as REBT describes, healthy negative emotions and

31:54.068 --> 31:59.298
unhealthy negative emotions. When people hear negative, some

31:59.324 --> 32:01.220
of them think it means bad.

32:01.610 --> 32:05.146
So REBT doesn't see negative as equals

32:05.218 --> 32:07.882
bad. Negative in this context

32:07.966 --> 32:09.730
means they're not pleasant.

32:09.910 --> 32:12.510
Would you rather be happy or sad? Happy, of course.

32:12.560 --> 32:14.554
So sad is not pleasant.

32:14.602 --> 32:16.110
So that's why it's called negative.

32:16.610 --> 32:19.434
It's a type of information that gives feedback to

32:19.472 --> 32:23.214
yourself to improve the quality of your life. Make

32:23.252 --> 32:25.714
different choices, and then make new choices.

32:25.762 --> 32:26.840
Okay, exactly.

32:27.350 --> 32:29.566
So I'll give you examples.

32:29.758 --> 32:33.634
And again, the unhealthy negative emotions can paralyze

32:33.682 --> 32:36.714
you, stop you from taking any action, or

32:36.752 --> 32:41.866
can stimulate, like rage, can stimulate dangerous action.

32:41.998 --> 32:45.990
The healthy emotions are appropriate and usually lead

32:46.040 --> 32:50.120
to appropriate, not only feeling but behavior. Okay.

32:51.050 --> 32:57.058
They help your behavior be directed more

32:57.084 --> 32:59.940
towards whom you want to truly become.

33:00.870 --> 33:03.554
Well, depending on who you want to truly

33:03.602 --> 33:07.762
become, an individual who wants to suffer less

33:07.956 --> 33:12.120
and enjoy life more in a healthy way. Yeah. Okay.

33:12.450 --> 33:16.214
So the healthy negative emotion, emotion in response

33:16.262 --> 33:19.714
to a bad experience, to adversity would be

33:19.752 --> 33:25.490
sadness or concern or appropriate anger.

33:25.550 --> 33:30.190
If you see injustice, that it stimulates action,

33:31.170 --> 33:36.182
as opposed to unhealthy negative emotions, like depression

33:36.326 --> 33:40.670
instead of sadness or rage instead of appropriate

33:40.730 --> 33:45.638
anger at injustice or anxiety instead of concern.

33:45.734 --> 33:46.286
Concern.

33:46.358 --> 33:48.290
Oh, I have an exam tomorrow.

33:48.350 --> 33:51.298
I better finish then you'll finish.

33:51.444 --> 33:55.210
But anxiety, people can even not concentrate.

33:55.530 --> 33:57.758
So I hope that's clear. It is brief.

33:57.794 --> 33:59.114
The difference between healthy

33:59.162 --> 34:01.406
negative and unhealthy negative.

34:01.478 --> 34:03.650
I have the impression that a healthy negative

34:03.830 --> 34:07.690
is a way of getting emotional feedback that

34:07.740 --> 34:10.538
can help you make better choices, while unhealthy

34:10.574 --> 34:15.214
negatives are the ones who either destruct or

34:15.252 --> 34:19.210
paralyze your ability to make positive choices.

34:20.010 --> 34:20.878
That's what you mean.

34:20.904 --> 34:22.498
That's a very clear way of putting it.

34:22.524 --> 34:23.590
Yeah, wonderful.

34:25.110 --> 34:28.005
But it's very interesting for people

34:28.188 --> 34:30.674
to know about this distinction.

34:30.782 --> 34:34.030
So the next thing they will benefit from

34:34.080 --> 34:36.818
knowing is how do we create the healthy

34:36.853 --> 34:38.518
ones instead of the unhealthy ones?

34:38.543 --> 34:39.610
That's the secret.

34:39.989 --> 34:41.710
Well, it's not a secret.

34:43.530 --> 34:44.820
That's the key.

34:48.310 --> 34:53.714
So my husband taught that there are some

34:53.752 --> 34:58.130
very clear elements to unhealthy irrational thinking.

34:58.240 --> 35:01.502
Irrational thinking, which create

35:01.576 --> 35:05.522
the debilitating unhealthy negative emotions. Okay.

35:05.596 --> 35:07.238
When we think in healthy ways, we

35:07.264 --> 35:10.250
create healthy emotions, healthy, rational ways.

35:10.300 --> 35:15.220
So unhealthy irrational thinking consists of

35:16.870 --> 35:20.474
demanding things or people should be

35:20.512 --> 35:22.454
the way we think they should.

35:22.612 --> 35:24.220
It's like smaller norm.

35:24.550 --> 35:26.018
We put the norm and they

35:26.044 --> 35:28.538
have to correspond to the norm. Something like that.

35:28.564 --> 35:29.582
It's the have to.

35:29.656 --> 35:32.162
It's the demand, it's the should.

35:32.296 --> 35:33.390
It's like force?

35:33.510 --> 35:35.726
Yeah, the must, the ought.

35:35.788 --> 35:36.746
We should.

35:36.928 --> 35:40.540
Now it's very healthy to want what we want.

35:41.110 --> 35:44.526
I want you to treat me with respect. That's healthy.

35:44.598 --> 35:45.738
It's a preference.

35:45.894 --> 35:49.994
But if I think you should treat me with respect and

35:50.032 --> 35:53.454
you don't, and you would try to find ways to force

35:53.502 --> 35:58.430
me, or even if I don't, and I think you treat

35:58.480 --> 36:03.510
me without respect, angry or I might get depressed.

36:03.570 --> 36:05.178
Oh, I'm not good enough that's

36:05.214 --> 36:06.914
why he's treating me like this.

36:07.012 --> 36:08.440
So you take it personal.

36:08.890 --> 36:09.842
One can.

36:09.976 --> 36:14.320
So one aspect of unhealthy thinking is should

36:14.770 --> 36:18.950
demands instead of preferences, which are healthy.

36:19.450 --> 36:24.558
Another aspect of irrational, unhealthy thinking is blowing

36:24.594 --> 36:28.746
things out of proportion, saying something is terrible

36:28.818 --> 36:32.738
or awful, I can't stand it.

36:32.824 --> 36:36.630
Instead of, well, it's bad, but it's not the worst

36:36.690 --> 36:39.846
it could be because my husband would patiently

36:39.918 --> 36:44.538
remind us that unless something kills you, it's

36:44.574 --> 36:46.286
not the worst it could be.

36:46.408 --> 36:48.962
The death would be probably the worst it could be

36:49.036 --> 36:53.680
because if one is alive, there is a hope of

36:54.250 --> 36:59.322
things changing, of doing something different, of things improving.

36:59.406 --> 37:01.742
You see, where there is life, there is hope.

37:01.876 --> 37:04.286
Even if we cannot see where

37:04.348 --> 37:05.930
is the hope of the solution.

37:06.730 --> 37:09.650
Being alive means that there is a kind of

37:09.700 --> 37:14.618
software in our system together with social connections that

37:14.644 --> 37:16.660
can lead to solutions in the future.

37:18.370 --> 37:19.660
So there is hope.

37:21.430 --> 37:27.460
And on those days where we're too foggy to see

37:29.050 --> 37:33.986
the recommendation is just keep going, keep going, keep going,

37:34.108 --> 37:38.270
keep going in the direction that you chose and make

37:38.320 --> 37:42.182
the effort to do what I just mentioned, to keep

37:42.256 --> 37:48.158
things in perspective, instead of saying it's so awful to

37:48.184 --> 37:52.982
say it's very bad, but A could be worse than

37:52.996 --> 37:55.634
B, so what can I do about it?

37:55.732 --> 38:00.038
So keeping things but do you have a trick or a

38:00.064 --> 38:04.350
technique that can help me to keep things in perspective?

38:04.410 --> 38:08.018
Because when I'm already down in a

38:08.044 --> 38:10.998
depression or in a state of fear,

38:11.154 --> 38:13.974
it's very difficult to keep this perspective.

38:14.022 --> 38:15.400
How can I do that?

38:16.210 --> 38:20.342
Well, one way might be and

38:20.356 --> 38:22.550
it's different for different individuals.

38:23.830 --> 38:24.302
Okay.

38:24.376 --> 38:26.750
So if in the past you went through

38:26.800 --> 38:30.326
this and you overcame it to remind yourself,

38:30.448 --> 38:33.158
I've been here before and I overcame it.

38:33.244 --> 38:37.142
So to remember a previous success in overcoming it? Yes.

38:37.216 --> 38:37.634
Okay.

38:37.732 --> 38:41.450
That's why I'm the second thing is to think

38:41.500 --> 38:45.110
of someone who has gone through something similar or

38:45.160 --> 38:47.954
worse than you and who got through it.

38:48.052 --> 38:50.318
So it's important to have role models in

38:50.344 --> 38:52.010
life, whether you knew them or not.

38:52.060 --> 38:55.610
It might be a Mandela, it might be Albert Ellis.

38:56.290 --> 38:57.894
Think of role models.

38:57.942 --> 39:00.530
I remember a patient, a young

39:00.580 --> 39:03.330
girl, and she was depressed.

39:03.510 --> 39:05.778
And the only thing I got from the interview

39:05.874 --> 39:11.882
is that her grandfather was writing a diary in

39:12.016 --> 39:15.350
the Second World War because he was a survivor.

39:15.670 --> 39:19.070
And I asked her if by the next session she

39:19.120 --> 39:23.906
could reread the diary and the notes that he took

39:23.968 --> 39:28.190
in the concentration camp to see how he overcame even

39:28.240 --> 39:32.402
more difficult situations and all the solutions were there.

39:32.476 --> 39:34.970
Does that not give a healthy perspective?

39:36.370 --> 39:39.086
Now I get what you mean. Yeah.

39:39.268 --> 39:40.802
So the two ways.

39:40.876 --> 39:44.954
First was that I can look at my past, what

39:44.992 --> 39:49.214
I did in the past to resolve similar issues.

39:49.372 --> 39:51.434
The second is to see what other people

39:51.472 --> 39:53.654
are, role models or sources, how they got

39:53.692 --> 39:56.186
through or that they did get through. Yeah.

39:56.368 --> 40:01.300
And then another thing is to even when things are bad,

40:02.290 --> 40:06.040
like your most loved one in the world is dying. Yeah.

40:06.490 --> 40:09.350
A lot of us go through that more than once.

40:09.520 --> 40:18.020
Parents, husband, wife, to make the effort every day.

40:20.090 --> 40:23.850
And even if you're not going through something like

40:23.900 --> 40:27.620
this, but you asked about depression. Every day

40:28.010 --> 40:30.558
focus on what still is good in your

40:30.584 --> 40:34.230
life, on something that still is good. Whatever.

40:34.340 --> 40:36.582
Something that still is good in my life.

40:36.656 --> 40:38.418
At the end of my husband's life,

40:38.504 --> 40:40.594
his body was a torture chamber.

40:40.762 --> 40:43.218
He knew he wouldn't get back control of

40:43.244 --> 40:45.920
his institute, and he wanted that very much.

40:47.270 --> 40:48.598
He didn't want to die.

40:48.694 --> 40:49.854
He didn't want to leave me.

40:49.892 --> 40:51.726
He didn't want to leave me without him.

40:51.788 --> 40:54.500
I mean, pretty tough, right.

40:54.830 --> 40:58.160
And I also was going through the agony of.

40:58.490 --> 41:03.570
So every day we held hands, we

41:03.620 --> 41:05.910
touched, I would stroke his head.

41:06.020 --> 41:09.140
We said I love you

41:10.010 --> 41:11.480
even without words.

41:12.650 --> 41:14.480
And that was there.

41:15.710 --> 41:18.354
And that kept us together. Yeah.

41:18.392 --> 41:23.494
So that's the difference between going into a depression

41:23.662 --> 41:27.654
or taking your life in your hands, focusing on

41:27.692 --> 41:31.042
small, you feel grief, you feel sadness.

41:31.126 --> 41:32.934
But that doesn't paralyze you.

41:32.972 --> 41:34.002
Depression can.

41:34.136 --> 41:36.990
It's important that I say that for some

41:37.040 --> 41:40.666
people, there is more of a biological component

41:40.738 --> 41:43.062
to their depression than for other people.

41:43.256 --> 41:44.600
In that case

41:44.990 --> 41:48.438
and as a medical doctor, you obviously know very much

41:48.464 --> 41:51.270
what I'm talking about, that some people are very much

41:51.380 --> 41:56.778
helped by appropriate medication, but that's only 50% if you

41:56.804 --> 42:01.914
want to maximize quality of life, because a medication can

42:01.952 --> 42:06.246
get you into a place of steadiness if you like. Yes.

42:06.368 --> 42:10.410
And then you can apply REBT.

42:13.290 --> 42:13.870
Okay.

42:13.980 --> 42:15.190
But that's not enough.

42:15.300 --> 42:18.698
That gives you steadiness and then some REBT.

42:18.794 --> 42:22.558
So you're self-empowered to create your

42:22.584 --> 42:25.114
own emotion by thinking in healthy ways.

42:25.272 --> 42:29.098
People who are chemically imbalanced and

42:29.124 --> 42:31.666
are helped by appropriate, not over

42:31.728 --> 42:34.630
medication, but appropriate medication.

42:35.670 --> 42:38.650
They then have the ability to make the

42:38.700 --> 42:42.902
effort to apply REBT, see things in perspective,

42:42.986 --> 42:44.794
focus on what still is good.

42:44.892 --> 42:49.198
Without the medication, such people may not be

42:49.224 --> 42:52.046
able to benefit as much from REBT.

42:52.118 --> 42:54.780
For some of the treasures would be too high. Exactly.

42:55.530 --> 42:58.282
And there are a whole lot of people

42:58.356 --> 43:01.270
who I believe are over medicated, unnecessarily.

43:01.830 --> 43:03.626
For some, it is necessary.

43:03.818 --> 43:05.962
That's what I like about what you say,

43:06.036 --> 43:10.594
that is that both are possibly good solutions. Yeah.

43:10.692 --> 43:12.514
And maybe they go hand in hand.

43:12.672 --> 43:15.382
If someone needs the medication, they go

43:15.456 --> 43:19.274
hand in hand without the REBT

43:19.382 --> 43:22.330
the medication alone, I think, is regrettable.

43:23.250 --> 43:25.740
It's not enough because there's no learning.

43:29.230 --> 43:29.702
Yeah.

43:29.776 --> 43:32.622
So I just followed something I heard only yesterday

43:32.766 --> 43:36.498
that again, in this realm of research and science

43:36.594 --> 43:39.674
and how things are being proved now that my

43:39.712 --> 43:42.230
husband was saying, without the evidence.

43:42.550 --> 43:43.550
Wow, that's great.

43:43.600 --> 43:49.854
Half a century ago, the fact that when

43:49.892 --> 43:54.774
one makes the effort to dispute an idea

43:54.872 --> 44:01.866
that's unhealthy that effort, that initiative stimulates those

44:01.928 --> 44:05.458
healthy chemicals in the brain, endorphins,

44:05.554 --> 44:07.338
and the other, in order to

44:07.364 --> 44:12.394
dispute unhealthy has a chemical reaction.

44:12.562 --> 44:14.574
A healthy one. Wow.

44:14.672 --> 44:16.114
Now, part of REBT.

44:16.162 --> 44:17.946
And I hadn't yet gotten into

44:18.008 --> 44:22.330
that is disputing the irrational belief.

44:22.450 --> 44:25.126
You see other cognitive approaches

44:25.258 --> 44:26.960
or some other not all.

44:27.590 --> 44:31.998
You identify an unhealthy belief and you replace it.

44:32.144 --> 44:33.790
And that's helpful.

44:33.970 --> 44:36.522
But I love REBT because it goes

44:36.596 --> 44:38.878
that much further and it's more vigorous.

44:38.974 --> 44:44.718
Rebt, you make naked the irrational beliefs that are

44:44.744 --> 44:48.282
hurting you, and then you don't just replace them.

44:48.416 --> 44:49.974
You dispute them.

44:50.132 --> 44:52.830
You send them away.

44:52.940 --> 44:54.666
Can you give an example? I can.

44:54.788 --> 45:01.630
All right, so let's say you tell me,

45:01.680 --> 45:04.058
Dr. Debbie Ellis, I think you're

45:04.094 --> 45:06.720
a stupid, arrogant person.

45:08.970 --> 45:14.614
And I think to myself, how can he say such a thing?

45:14.712 --> 45:18.720
He shouldn't say such a thing to a doll like me.

45:19.590 --> 45:20.990
It's disgusting.

45:21.050 --> 45:23.210
I can't stand the disrespect.

45:23.330 --> 45:29.150
And then I make myself furious, angry and anxious.

45:29.330 --> 45:31.726
And then he'll tell other people those things,

45:31.788 --> 45:33.238
and then no one will like me.

45:33.264 --> 45:34.534
And so I have a whole

45:34.572 --> 45:36.910
schmoos board of unhealthy emotions.

45:37.290 --> 45:39.718
So then REBT tells me to

45:39.744 --> 45:42.130
write down my irrational beliefs.

45:43.770 --> 45:48.022
Preferably when you've done it enough times on paper,

45:48.096 --> 45:50.962
it's easier to do it in your head. Now. I can do it.

45:51.036 --> 45:53.614
But for people starting out, write it. Write it.

45:53.652 --> 45:55.474
Write it right for years.

45:55.632 --> 45:58.474
Till it's semi automatic to do it. Yeah.

45:58.512 --> 46:00.118
Till it becomes a habit. Yeah.

46:00.204 --> 46:02.134
And so I told you before, some of the

46:02.172 --> 46:06.898
components of irrational thinking should demand blowing things out

46:06.924 --> 46:11.158
of proportion and saying, I can't stand it.

46:11.184 --> 46:12.540
I touched on that.

46:15.576 --> 46:18.410
So I write down my irrational beliefs.

46:18.530 --> 46:20.974
He shouldn't talk to me like that.

46:21.132 --> 46:23.280
He should respect me.

46:23.850 --> 46:28.210
I can't stand that he doesn't see my good qualities.

46:28.890 --> 46:32.314
If he tells other people I'm whatever he

46:32.352 --> 46:35.782
says I am, they'll hate me, too.

46:35.856 --> 46:37.750
And that will be terrible enough.

46:37.920 --> 46:39.590
Blowing things out of perspective.

46:39.650 --> 46:40.934
I'm finding the shoots.

46:41.042 --> 46:42.274
So I write down.

46:42.372 --> 46:43.980
So not only the first.

46:47.890 --> 46:49.334
Yeah, everything.

46:49.432 --> 46:52.120
I mean, that comes to your mind at that moment.

46:52.930 --> 46:57.710
And then the disputing, the REBT disputing. Okay.

46:57.760 --> 46:59.642
Because again, in other approaches, it

46:59.656 --> 47:01.430
might be you do the same.

47:01.480 --> 47:03.938
You find the unhelpful belief, and then

47:03.964 --> 47:06.174
you change it to a helpful belief.

47:06.282 --> 47:08.030
I'm not criticizing that.

47:08.140 --> 47:10.254
I'm just telling you about REBT.

47:10.422 --> 47:14.834
So you dispute it by saying, where is it

47:14.872 --> 47:18.186
written that he should treat me with respect?

47:18.318 --> 47:21.818
Just because I would like it doesn't mean he has to.

47:21.964 --> 47:25.430
And if he doesn't, is it so terrible?

47:25.870 --> 47:27.518
Will my life be over?

47:27.604 --> 47:31.502
If this one human being thinks I'm whatever he thinks I

47:31.516 --> 47:36.160
am, where is the evidence that everyone must like me?

47:36.670 --> 47:39.338
Where is the evidence I need everyone to

47:39.364 --> 47:41.680
like me, or else I can't be happy.

47:42.370 --> 47:43.818
And so I'm looking for evidence.

47:43.854 --> 47:47.382
And the answer to the question, where is there is none.

47:47.466 --> 47:49.370
So the technique that you use is

47:49.420 --> 47:51.402
asking yourself question, where is the evidence?

47:51.486 --> 47:52.638
Where is the evidence?

47:52.734 --> 47:55.610
And then not only that, is it

47:55.660 --> 47:57.386
helping me to think like this?

47:57.508 --> 48:00.726
Is it helping me to think he should treat me wisely?

48:00.918 --> 48:04.730
And by demanding it, does it mean it's going to work?

48:04.780 --> 48:05.834
Is it going to change?

48:05.932 --> 48:06.940
Probably not.

48:07.990 --> 48:13.050
So I'm really questioning the truth of my belief.

48:13.230 --> 48:14.966
And by doing that, I find

48:15.028 --> 48:18.280
out, like, I make it impotent. Yeah.

48:18.670 --> 48:21.340
It goes from being virile to.

48:22.330 --> 48:24.460
Yeah, because it becomes like,

48:24.910 --> 48:26.920
what does this really mean?

48:28.450 --> 48:30.954
And then I come up with the healthy

48:31.002 --> 48:35.430
belief, the effective new belief or emotion.

48:35.610 --> 48:39.294
This is the ABC approach of REBT.

48:39.462 --> 48:42.854
And I really recommend to people who are interested to

48:42.892 --> 48:47.174
read any of my husband's books, Albert Ellis books, and

48:47.212 --> 48:51.218
also he and I, one of the last books he

48:51.244 --> 48:53.018
wrote at the end of his life.

48:53.164 --> 48:54.698
We wrote together and the

48:54.724 --> 48:59.150
American Psychological Association published it.

48:59.200 --> 49:02.202
And it came out in 2011 called Rational Emotive

49:02.226 --> 49:04.878
Behavior Therapy by Albert Ellis and Debbie Joffe Ellis.

49:04.974 --> 49:06.950
And it's a thin book with these major

49:07.000 --> 49:10.142
and that's a book also for the patients and

49:10.216 --> 49:13.130
the not for the therapist, but for the normal people.

49:15.670 --> 49:19.454
It's kind of first intended for therapists and

49:19.492 --> 49:22.540
students of REBT, but it's understandable for anyone.

49:22.870 --> 49:27.350
Okay, so I mentioned that because it goes into more

49:27.400 --> 49:30.710
about the ABC that I'm just describing to you.

49:30.820 --> 49:33.422
But most of my husband's books do.

49:33.496 --> 49:35.390
So whichever.

49:36.070 --> 49:38.358
Can you briefly mention for the listener

49:38.394 --> 49:39.890
what is A, B and C?

49:40.000 --> 49:42.218
Okay, so A is the activating effect.

49:42.304 --> 49:44.680
You tell me that I'm whatever.

49:47.290 --> 49:50.510
C is the consequence, my

49:50.560 --> 49:54.834
emotion, emotional consequences and behavioral.

49:54.882 --> 49:58.310
So in this case, emotion is rage and anxiety.

49:58.930 --> 50:01.634
Now, behavioral doesn't apply in this

50:01.672 --> 50:03.134
case because I didn't do anything.

50:03.232 --> 50:05.678
But if I punched you, that

50:05.704 --> 50:07.638
would be a behavior aggression.

50:07.794 --> 50:17.958
Or if I went and started smoking and I don't smoke, or

50:17.984 --> 50:22.014
if I went and ate ten chocolate cakes.

50:22.172 --> 50:25.590
So it can happen that the B of behavior doesn't apply.

50:25.700 --> 50:26.466
It can be.

50:26.528 --> 50:29.814
Okay, but you're looking for the emotional one. Yeah.

50:29.852 --> 50:31.542
That's why you're doing it.

50:31.736 --> 50:33.870
So that's C the consequence.

50:34.310 --> 50:36.930
And then you go to B, which is you

50:36.980 --> 50:41.778
identify the irrational beliefs, not the rational ones.

50:41.924 --> 50:43.638
I don't like it when he does it

50:43.664 --> 50:45.858
because you don't need to change those for

50:45.884 --> 50:49.470
your wellbeing, but the irrational ones. Right.

50:49.580 --> 50:51.094
He should. He mustn't.

50:51.142 --> 50:53.190
I can't stand it. It's awful.

50:53.630 --> 50:56.094
And then comes the D, which

50:56.132 --> 50:58.350
I just explained to disputing.

50:58.730 --> 51:00.546
That's the dispute. Yeah.

51:00.668 --> 51:02.790
Pragmatic logical.

51:03.230 --> 51:04.546
Where is the evidence?

51:04.618 --> 51:06.642
Where is it getting me? Is it helping me?

51:06.656 --> 51:08.178
Is it hurting me to think in this

51:08.204 --> 51:11.070
way? Really like going you can spend even

51:11.120 --> 51:18.500
half an hour on elaborating this.

51:19.010 --> 51:20.540
Take the time it takes.

51:21.110 --> 51:24.474
And then finally E, which stands for the

51:24.512 --> 51:28.306
Effective New Belief or the Effective New Philosophy.

51:28.498 --> 51:30.620
You were talking before about

51:31.490 --> 51:34.030
my husband demonstrating the approach.

51:34.090 --> 51:38.074
And within 20 minutes, a person would be transformed.

51:38.182 --> 51:40.614
And I continue to do that when I

51:40.652 --> 51:43.270
give workshops and when I give demonstrations.

51:43.330 --> 51:46.446
And actually a few months ago, APA recorded

51:46.568 --> 51:51.990
a DVD of me doing such a demonstration.

51:52.610 --> 51:58.714
And, yeah, REBT is a brilliant brief therapy.

51:58.882 --> 52:03.262
Now when they do it with someone 20 minutes, they're

52:03.286 --> 52:06.762
like, wow, I never thought of it like that.

52:06.836 --> 52:08.240
Yeah, I feel better.

52:08.990 --> 52:12.474
But then if they want to maintain that they

52:12.512 --> 52:15.198
had better make the effort for the rest of

52:15.224 --> 52:19.986
their life to watch the unhealthy thinking dispute it

52:20.168 --> 52:22.760
and to think them in the healthy way.

52:24.170 --> 52:28.506
That's what you have to repeat time after time. Yeah.

52:28.628 --> 52:31.546
And some people wrongly and lazily

52:31.618 --> 52:33.380
think, oh, it's too hard.

52:35.030 --> 52:37.734
Only if you convince yourself it's really not hard.

52:37.772 --> 52:39.258
Is it hard for a person to

52:39.284 --> 52:41.850
brush their teeth twice a day? No.

52:41.900 --> 52:44.202
If you learned it the appropriate way at

52:44.216 --> 52:46.830
the right time, it becomes what happens.

52:47.000 --> 52:48.810
It becomes something you do.

52:48.980 --> 52:51.078
And REBT doesn't have to be hard.

52:51.164 --> 52:55.062
It just becomes something you do up here because

52:55.136 --> 52:58.882
you want to be healthy emotionally and physically.

52:58.966 --> 53:01.662
I mean, again, research shows the mind body

53:01.736 --> 53:05.902
connection and how the emotions affect the physical.

53:06.046 --> 53:09.080
It's actually because you desire a better future

53:10.250 --> 53:12.414
that you find the motivation to make this

53:12.452 --> 53:18.660
choice. A better future and a better present. Yeah.

53:19.710 --> 53:22.860
That's the best present to have a best present.

53:24.810 --> 53:25.560
Right.

53:26.250 --> 53:27.286
That's great.

53:27.408 --> 53:29.678
That's a very beautiful explanation.

53:29.774 --> 53:34.942
So just to summarize, A is active activating, event

53:35.016 --> 53:46.682
card, or you can say adversity. Unpleasant activator that

53:46.756 --> 53:51.554
appeared to create your unhealthy emotions, appeared because we

53:51.592 --> 53:54.100
know it's the beliefs, not what happened.

53:54.730 --> 53:57.618
And then the B was irrational beliefs.

53:57.654 --> 54:00.242
Well, B stands for the beliefs, but for

54:00.256 --> 54:03.614
the purpose of the ABC approach, you identify the

54:03.712 --> 54:08.138
irrational and then the C is the consequence, the

54:08.164 --> 54:10.914
emotional consequence and the behavioral consequences.

54:11.082 --> 54:14.330
If behavioral applies, sometimes it doesn't.

54:15.670 --> 54:18.558
And then the D is the disputing.

54:18.714 --> 54:23.090
And the main question to help you start

54:23.140 --> 54:25.554
the disputing is where is the evidence?

54:25.662 --> 54:27.090
Where is the evidence?

54:27.270 --> 54:30.810
Where is it getting me to hold on to disbelief?

54:30.990 --> 54:33.638
Is it helping me or hurting me?

54:33.724 --> 54:36.602
So where is it getting me to hold on to this?

54:36.796 --> 54:38.786
Yeah, that's the key question.

54:38.848 --> 54:40.370
Is it helping or hurting?

54:40.750 --> 54:45.638
And the equal question is where is the evidence that

54:45.664 --> 54:49.480
it's so awful, terrible that he should or life should?

54:53.390 --> 54:53.754
Yeah.

54:53.792 --> 54:56.238
And by the way, in the books, there's more in

54:56.264 --> 54:58.122
our interview, I don't have time to go near everything.

54:58.196 --> 55:03.710
But having the main points. It is the effective

55:03.770 --> 55:06.670
new philosophy or the new healthy belief.

55:07.950 --> 55:13.390
In the example of you being abusive to me, the

55:13.440 --> 55:17.798
effective new philosophy after I disputed he should and it's

55:17.834 --> 55:21.874
terrible would be, well, I'd like him to treat me

55:21.912 --> 55:23.918
better, but if he doesn't, he doesn't.

55:24.014 --> 55:26.506
It's no big deal. Yeah.

55:26.568 --> 55:30.262
It doesn't change your life unless they let it.

55:30.336 --> 55:31.980
Unless you let it yeah.

55:32.370 --> 55:34.138
I can stand it.

55:34.284 --> 55:36.600
I don't like it, but I can stand.

55:37.050 --> 55:43.070
And what's paradoxical is that because you made this decision

55:43.130 --> 55:48.118
to make this in a change, the possibility increases that

55:48.144 --> 55:50.470
there will be a point in the future in our

55:50.520 --> 55:53.818
interaction that I will start to react differently on you.

55:53.904 --> 55:56.530
It doesn't always happen because people

55:56.640 --> 55:58.970
can really be fundamentally damaged.

55:59.090 --> 56:01.714
But sometimes it happens that because you

56:01.752 --> 56:04.714
view me differently, after a while, I

56:04.752 --> 56:07.954
will start to treat you differently also. Yes.

56:07.992 --> 56:10.678
And that's kind of indirect effect that you

56:10.704 --> 56:15.454
could have, again, depending on the person.

56:15.612 --> 56:16.810
Shall I give you a quick

56:16.860 --> 56:18.670
example from my husband's life?

56:18.780 --> 56:21.574
It's different from the example I gave because

56:21.612 --> 56:25.858
it's not concerning abuse, but it demonstrates the

56:25.884 --> 56:29.038
fact that the other person ironically changed when

56:29.064 --> 56:31.646
my husband changed his demands.

56:31.718 --> 56:33.910
Oh, that's an interesting one. Yeah.

56:34.080 --> 56:37.805
So when he was a young man, he was about 24,

56:37.815 --> 56:42.070
and he felt madly in love with a woman called Carol.

56:45.010 --> 56:46.202
She was very young.

56:46.276 --> 56:51.018
She was a lot younger than him, 18 or 19.

56:51.031 --> 56:55.922
And they were romantic and they were quite

56:55.996 --> 56:58.122
intimate in some ways and so forth.

56:58.146 --> 56:59.138
And he adored her.

56:59.164 --> 57:00.722
And he wanted to spend his life with her.

57:00.736 --> 57:02.618
And she was on and off, hot

57:02.644 --> 57:05.402
and cold sometimes, yes, we will.

57:05.476 --> 57:07.166
And other times, I don't know.

57:07.288 --> 57:13.482
Anyway, one particular night, they had had a lovely dinner

57:13.566 --> 57:17.642
and romance and all of that, and he was at

57:17.656 --> 57:20.174
her home, and it was time for him to go.

57:20.212 --> 57:21.122
They didn't live together.

57:21.196 --> 57:24.066
She was with her parents, but her parents weren't,

57:24.258 --> 57:26.680
I guess, in that room or even at home.

57:27.130 --> 57:28.866
And she walked into the door.

57:28.938 --> 57:30.700
It was time for him to leave.

57:32.170 --> 57:33.698
And she says, you know what?

57:33.784 --> 57:35.414
I think we need a break.

57:35.512 --> 57:42.274
Or he left and he felt devastated.

57:42.382 --> 57:43.798
He felt depressed.

57:43.834 --> 57:45.786
He said it was one of the few

57:45.848 --> 57:48.490
times in his life he shed tears.

57:48.670 --> 57:50.866
And he went to the park nearby.

57:50.938 --> 57:53.074
He lives near the Bronx Botanical Gardens.

57:53.122 --> 57:55.494
It's midnight, and he went for

57:55.532 --> 57:57.594
a walk around the lake there.

57:57.692 --> 58:02.742
And he's thinking about his despondency and

58:02.876 --> 58:04.974
how can he be happy without her?

58:05.012 --> 58:07.354
And he's feeling depressed.

58:07.462 --> 58:14.094
And then he had this enlightened realization that

58:14.132 --> 58:18.810
it wasn't her rejection that was creating his

58:18.860 --> 58:23.730
depression, but it was his demanding that she

58:23.780 --> 58:26.994
should love him the way he loved her.

58:27.152 --> 58:31.542
It was his demanding that they should be

58:31.616 --> 58:33.882
together for the rest of their lives.

58:34.076 --> 58:37.878
It was him convincing himself that he

58:37.904 --> 58:41.420
could never be happy without her.

58:41.810 --> 58:47.526
And he realized that these beliefs were not true, that

58:47.588 --> 58:53.406
even if worst case scenario, he wouldn't be as happy

58:53.588 --> 58:57.618
with another woman, there was still a strong possibility he

58:57.644 --> 59:00.200
could have some happiness with someone else.

59:00.650 --> 59:06.066
He realized that just because he thought she

59:06.128 --> 59:08.338
should love him as much as he loved

59:08.374 --> 59:11.502
her didn't mean she was going to.

59:11.576 --> 59:12.954
And where was it getting him?

59:12.992 --> 59:14.418
Was it helping him or hurting him?

59:14.444 --> 59:15.582
It was hurting him.

59:15.716 --> 59:20.454
And in that moment, he realized, well, let me make the

59:20.492 --> 59:25.338
effort to not demand that she be with me and to

59:25.364 --> 59:29.070
not let myself think I can never be happy without him.

59:29.180 --> 59:31.426
So he changed his attitude.

59:31.618 --> 59:34.040
They met again some time later.

59:34.550 --> 59:38.542
And ironically, with him not having that desperation,

59:38.686 --> 59:42.550
not having this on her, Carol, her desire

59:42.670 --> 59:45.138
got a little higher and she wanted him.

59:45.284 --> 59:46.220
Oh, wow.

59:47.090 --> 59:48.594
That's really interesting.

59:48.752 --> 59:50.694
Now the next part to the story

59:50.792 --> 59:55.280
is they married for 18 hours.

59:56.570 --> 59:57.078
What?

59:57.164 --> 01:00:00.318
Well, her parents found out and forced them to

01:00:00.344 --> 01:00:02.754
announce the marriage because she was so young.

01:00:02.912 --> 01:00:06.214
But they stayed lifelong friends till she died.

01:00:06.262 --> 01:00:09.202
She died six years before Albert.

01:00:09.286 --> 01:00:13.158
He was very loyal friend to people

01:00:13.244 --> 01:00:14.958
who had been in his life.

01:00:15.104 --> 01:00:17.154
But anyway, it's just an example of

01:00:17.192 --> 01:00:19.710
what you touched on that sometimes.

01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:22.100
Now, let's not expect always.

01:00:22.430 --> 01:00:26.466
Sometimes, ironically, another person can change

01:00:26.588 --> 01:00:28.522
when we drop our desperation.

01:00:28.666 --> 01:00:30.718
But the most important reason for dropping

01:00:30.754 --> 01:00:33.186
our desperation isn't to manipulate another.

01:00:33.308 --> 01:00:36.282
It's to have inner well being. Yeah.

01:00:36.416 --> 01:00:40.342
The focus is inner well being, and reality

01:00:40.486 --> 01:00:43.040
can pay you a bonus for it.

01:00:43.790 --> 01:00:46.950
But let's not expect expectations.

01:00:48.230 --> 01:00:50.600
If we would expect that too much,

01:00:51.050 --> 01:00:53.022
that would lead to desperation again.

01:00:53.096 --> 01:00:56.586
So that's why you cannot expect it.

01:00:56.768 --> 01:00:58.786
Well, we can, but it'll hurt.

01:00:58.978 --> 01:01:01.160
It'll probably hurt us anyway.

01:01:01.790 --> 01:01:03.654
Let's talk what we want, but

01:01:03.692 --> 01:01:07.040
watch that we don't demand it. Okay.

01:01:07.610 --> 01:01:09.738
That's a nice one. Yes.

01:01:09.884 --> 01:01:12.330
REBT is full of nice things.

01:01:14.270 --> 01:01:16.914
Is there something else that we should share

01:01:16.952 --> 01:01:18.762
with a listener, or do you think we

01:01:18.776 --> 01:01:20.780
have covered the most important issues?

01:01:21.290 --> 01:01:25.458
I think we've covered the most important issues.

01:01:25.544 --> 01:01:27.020
Let me just think.

01:01:30.570 --> 01:01:33.850
Yeah, I think we have I mean, essentially, to

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:38.630
sum it up with awareness, we have choice.

01:01:38.810 --> 01:01:40.342
If someone doesn't know they have a

01:01:40.356 --> 01:01:43.090
choice, then in a way they don't.

01:01:43.530 --> 01:01:48.550
So with awareness that we are responsible for our

01:01:48.600 --> 01:01:53.438
own emotional destiny and that we can create healthy

01:01:53.474 --> 01:01:56.040
emotions if we think in healthy ways.

01:01:57.210 --> 01:02:00.254
And if we catch ourselves in the midst

01:02:00.302 --> 01:02:04.318
of an unhealthy emotion, we can choose to

01:02:04.404 --> 01:02:10.114
pause and ask ourselves this question, what am

01:02:10.152 --> 01:02:13.510
I telling myself to create my emotion?

01:02:14.790 --> 01:02:18.454
And in all probability, there'll be a

01:02:18.492 --> 01:02:21.118
should, a must of blowing it out

01:02:21.144 --> 01:02:25.260
of proportion, a lot of frustration towards.

01:02:25.650 --> 01:02:27.854
And from that point, we can challenge

01:02:27.902 --> 01:02:30.194
our thinking in the ways we describe,

01:02:30.362 --> 01:02:33.242
think differently and create a healthy emotion.

01:02:33.326 --> 01:02:38.710
So this is an important part of REBT on repeating.

01:02:39.030 --> 01:02:41.998
We, when we are aware and know we have a

01:02:42.024 --> 01:02:46.718
choice, have the power to control our emotional destiny.

01:02:46.874 --> 01:02:48.830
What a gift. What a gift.

01:02:48.890 --> 01:02:50.194
So let's do it.

01:02:50.292 --> 01:02:51.610
In this one life.

01:02:51.660 --> 01:02:54.274
We have in this one life, we

01:02:54.312 --> 01:02:58.438
have to notice what's still beautiful, even

01:02:58.584 --> 01:03:01.140
if we're going through what's not beautiful.

01:03:02.490 --> 01:03:05.158
Al used to remind us again, and this

01:03:05.184 --> 01:03:07.150
is in Buddhism, and this is in other

01:03:07.200 --> 01:03:10.802
philosophies that life contains loss and suffering.

01:03:10.886 --> 01:03:12.082
That's the nature of it.

01:03:12.096 --> 01:03:14.714
That's part of life but if we think in healthy

01:03:14.762 --> 01:03:20.280
ways we will accept graciously that which we cannot change

01:03:21.210 --> 01:03:28.066
and we will have the ability to amplify what can

01:03:28.248 --> 01:03:34.478
be experienced with joy and we will minimize the suffering.

01:03:34.634 --> 01:03:37.200
So to end this, in a sense

01:03:38.070 --> 01:03:40.246
let's enjoy our gift of life.

01:03:40.308 --> 01:03:41.902
Let's think in healthy ways,

01:03:41.976 --> 01:03:44.302
let's feel in healthy ways.

01:03:44.436 --> 01:03:47.654
Let's not feel, let's feel in healthy

01:03:47.702 --> 01:03:50.280
ways and have a good time.

01:03:50.670 --> 01:03:52.438
Can I ask you one last question?

01:03:52.524 --> 01:03:55.978
You told me that you are finishing your book that

01:03:56.004 --> 01:03:59.186
you start to write with them about Buddhism and REBT.

01:03:59.258 --> 01:04:00.946
Yeah, they have much in common.

01:04:01.128 --> 01:04:05.710
Can you tell one glimpse of what people will find

01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:08.242
in the book that still had to come out?

01:04:08.316 --> 01:04:11.926
Yeah, well they'll find reminders of some of the things

01:04:11.988 --> 01:04:15.240
I've already said that can help us enjoy life more.

01:04:16.050 --> 01:04:19.862
They'll see some Buddhist tenants and REBT tenants

01:04:19.946 --> 01:04:22.274
and some in common and some differences.

01:04:22.322 --> 01:04:27.706
For example, some aspects of Buddhism can be a

01:04:27.708 --> 01:04:32.890
little bit absolutistic and REBT is much more flexible.

01:04:33.990 --> 01:04:37.594
Buddhism, for example some aspects of Buddhism or

01:04:37.632 --> 01:04:40.042
some schools of Buddhism Because there's Tibetan in

01:04:40.056 --> 01:04:43.714
there but some say life is suffering and

01:04:43.752 --> 01:04:46.982
REBT says life contains suffering.

01:04:47.006 --> 01:04:47.940
That's the difference.

01:04:48.450 --> 01:04:50.782
Yeah, that gives you a taste. Okay.

01:04:50.856 --> 01:04:53.338
But mainly what I think a lot of

01:04:53.364 --> 01:04:56.006
people will enjoy as well as the intellectual

01:04:56.078 --> 01:05:01.800
stimulation will be reminders of the philosophy of

01:05:02.610 --> 01:05:06.180
cherishing life being happy more and suffering less.

01:05:07.050 --> 01:05:07.800
Wow.

01:05:08.310 --> 01:05:10.090
I'm going to buy that book.

01:05:10.200 --> 01:05:11.700
I recommend it.

01:05:12.690 --> 01:05:13.740
You should.

01:05:14.970 --> 01:05:18.122
And for the reader, what's the title

01:05:18.146 --> 01:05:19.598
of this one book that you wrote

01:05:19.634 --> 01:05:24.926
together?Rational Emotive Behavior

01:05:24.998 --> 01:05:28.550
Therapy published by the American Psychological Association.

01:05:28.730 --> 01:05:32.650
And if any of your viewers are therapists

01:05:33.090 --> 01:05:36.394
From March 2014 onwards, they will be able

01:05:36.432 --> 01:05:40.390
to buy the clinical demonstration that I do

01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:43.750
again through APA American Psychology Association.

01:05:44.370 --> 01:05:48.058
I also finished Albert biography which he

01:05:48.084 --> 01:05:50.434
died before finishing it and that's available.

01:05:50.532 --> 01:05:56.038
It's called All Out and a very fine book that

01:05:56.064 --> 01:05:59.186
we worked on together but he's the sole author.

01:05:59.318 --> 01:06:03.598
Came out in 2005, the year you last heard him

01:06:03.744 --> 01:06:07.298
call the mid of self-esteem the myth of self-esteem.

01:06:07.334 --> 01:06:10.140
The publisher is promising you can get it online

01:06:10.530 --> 01:06:14.294
and that really the focus is unconditional acceptance.

01:06:14.462 --> 01:06:20.310
Okay, that's wonderful.