00:10.422 --> 00:11.642
Hi, Yvonne.
00:11.690 --> 00:13.398
It's a pleasure to talk with you.
00:13.424 --> 00:15.198
We have been friends for I don't know how
00:15.224 --> 00:18.140
many years, I guess close to 20 years probably.
00:18.890 --> 00:25.458
And I'm quite inspired by your work and in the
00:25.484 --> 00:28.734
program that we were developing, your ideas and work have
00:28.772 --> 00:32.934
contributed a lot in finding out how to develop it.
00:32.972 --> 00:34.820
So you are a great help.
00:35.390 --> 00:39.358
And 20 years ago, something like that, you wrote
00:39.394 --> 00:43.614
your first selfhelp book on post traumatic stress, how
00:43.652 --> 00:48.210
people with a history of abuse or any type
00:48.260 --> 00:51.680
of post traumatic stress find ways to help themselves.
00:52.190 --> 00:54.222
And what I would like to learn from you
00:54.236 --> 00:56.718
in this interview and to share also with the
00:56.744 --> 01:00.138
audience who is watching the video interview, I would
01:00.164 --> 01:05.418
like to find out why did you write something
01:05.504 --> 01:07.218
where people can learn to help themselves?
01:07.304 --> 01:11.226
Because in the past, people thought that only psychotherapy is
01:11.228 --> 01:13.434
a good way to help, and it's a very good
01:13.472 --> 01:16.074
way, but a lot of people are scared, so they
01:16.112 --> 01:19.690
look for other ways to either help a family member
01:19.750 --> 01:22.650
who is suffering or find ways to help themselves.
01:22.820 --> 01:25.518
And I would like to find out what is
01:25.544 --> 01:29.838
the core message that we should share professionals with
01:29.864 --> 01:33.966
people who are looking for relief of pain, looking
01:34.028 --> 01:37.340
for hope for a new future.
01:37.910 --> 01:42.246
What's the secret of healing, of
01:42.308 --> 01:44.610
becoming happy again after suffering.
01:44.930 --> 01:47.480
What's the secret? Okay.
01:48.050 --> 01:53.742
Well, the first thing, Paul, is that one of the
01:53.756 --> 01:57.270
reasons I chose to write a self help book was
01:57.320 --> 02:03.258
that I agree, psychotherapy is a wonderful resource, and sometimes
02:03.344 --> 02:06.798
it's not available when people need it the most at
02:06.824 --> 02:14.190
03:00 in the morning and sometimes people are fearful.
02:15.230 --> 02:17.430
So that was why I wrote it.
02:17.600 --> 02:21.798
What I believe is just the fact that someone is looking
02:21.824 --> 02:27.690
for help is one of the signs that they are already
02:27.800 --> 02:32.914
beginning to move in the direction beyond the trauma.
02:33.082 --> 02:35.730
So do you mean that someone who
02:35.900 --> 02:38.250
accidentally or not, is watching this video
02:38.300 --> 02:40.494
tape might be already looking for help?
02:40.532 --> 02:42.920
And that's for you first sign of
02:44.030 --> 02:45.658
healing or the beginning of healing?
02:45.694 --> 02:47.010
Is that what you're saying? Yes.
02:47.060 --> 02:48.774
It might be the beginning or they may
02:48.812 --> 02:51.726
be farther along than the beginning, but maybe
02:51.788 --> 02:54.500
something happened to temporarily set them back.
02:55.850 --> 02:58.450
Often there are many signs of healing.
02:58.510 --> 03:01.398
And wherever they are in their journey, just
03:01.424 --> 03:03.978
the fact they want things to be better
03:04.124 --> 03:09.260
means that they have made some movement already.
03:09.650 --> 03:13.098
That's helpful because a lot of people often are
03:13.124 --> 03:17.322
disqualifying themselves and thinking, I want a solution, but
03:17.336 --> 03:18.438
I don't know how to do it.
03:18.464 --> 03:19.558
So I'm stuck.
03:19.714 --> 03:22.518
And you are saying the fact that you already are
03:22.544 --> 03:26.298
wanting is a first step, that's what you are saying?
03:26.444 --> 03:26.790
Yes.
03:26.840 --> 03:28.002
I think they're already on the
03:28.016 --> 03:30.620
journey, and I mean it sincerely. Yeah.
03:31.670 --> 03:37.278
And just even recognizing that there's something that is
03:37.304 --> 03:39.282
hurting, in a sense, is the beginning of a
03:39.296 --> 03:44.790
journey because it says that they're wanting it to
03:44.900 --> 03:47.322
not hurt they're wanting it to be better.
03:47.396 --> 03:49.722
And that's anytime you're wanting something to
03:49.736 --> 03:51.334
be better, you've begun a journey.
03:51.382 --> 03:52.410
Even if you did not choose
03:52.460 --> 03:54.018
the journey, you've begun it.
03:54.044 --> 03:55.006
And that's helpful.
03:55.138 --> 03:58.350
So the desire for a change or for better life
03:58.400 --> 04:02.780
is the beginning of the therapy or the cell. Yeah.
04:03.230 --> 04:07.710
And then I think there are two or three things
04:07.820 --> 04:12.258
that really stand out after working with people with a
04:12.284 --> 04:14.802
history of trauma, and I personally have that history as
04:14.816 --> 04:20.000
well, after working with them for almost 40 years.
04:21.470 --> 04:24.714
One of the things that has stood out for me
04:24.752 --> 04:28.698
over the years is that people with a history of
04:28.724 --> 04:33.838
trauma, often when the trauma comes up or pain related
04:33.874 --> 04:38.310
to the trauma comes up, there's a tendency to think
04:38.360 --> 04:40.566
that that is the whole world.
04:40.628 --> 04:42.498
That is your whole world at that moment, because
04:42.524 --> 04:45.200
the experience is so powerful, it feels different.
04:47.790 --> 04:51.010
The first thing is it's very helpful.
04:51.330 --> 04:54.118
People can remember to tell themselves, even if it
04:54.144 --> 04:56.098
feels like this horrible feeling is going to go
04:56.124 --> 05:01.162
on and last forever, it absolutely won't. Okay.
05:01.236 --> 05:04.858
Just to realize that it's a period of your
05:04.884 --> 05:09.530
life, but not everything, because it feels terrifying.
05:09.650 --> 05:11.818
The symptoms feel terrifying if you think they
05:11.844 --> 05:14.014
won't ever go away sometimes, but they do
05:14.052 --> 05:17.378
go away and they go away physiologically.
05:17.534 --> 05:20.194
They go away in time, and they also
05:20.292 --> 05:24.742
go away in terms of going away because
05:24.816 --> 05:29.206
we do something to replace them with other
05:29.268 --> 05:33.250
feelings, feelings of comfort, feelings of wellbeing.
05:33.690 --> 05:37.260
And psychotherapy is a wonderful tool for that.
05:37.890 --> 05:41.938
Another tool that's a very simple tool is for
05:41.964 --> 05:44.880
the person to do something in the present.
05:45.270 --> 05:48.730
Something physically. Physically. In the present. Yes.
05:48.780 --> 05:50.918
That occupies their attention.
05:51.014 --> 05:53.520
It can be as simple as going for a walk.
05:54.690 --> 05:57.254
I've seen people do knitting.
05:57.422 --> 06:01.198
Just something that really causes us to focus
06:01.284 --> 06:05.134
on the present is a way to get
06:05.232 --> 06:09.442
a little bit of relief right there. Okay.
06:09.516 --> 06:12.818
So your brain is not fully occupied with the suffering.
06:12.854 --> 06:15.742
There's already some part of your focus, and
06:15.756 --> 06:19.210
your brain who is dealing with something else,
06:19.260 --> 06:21.742
something more useful, more pleasurable, more.
06:21.816 --> 06:23.822
It's another path to the present, and there's
06:23.846 --> 06:25.560
a lot of comfort in the present.
06:26.790 --> 06:29.234
Often people get a lot of benefit
06:29.282 --> 06:31.690
from very active things, like playing tennis.
06:32.070 --> 06:35.842
And I think that it's very individual.
06:35.976 --> 06:39.514
But I would encourage people to think about times
06:39.612 --> 06:42.900
in their life when they have felt better.
06:43.590 --> 06:45.240
What are they doing?
06:45.570 --> 06:48.454
So the memory of what you were doing when
06:48.492 --> 06:52.138
you felt better at some moment in the past. Yeah.
06:52.284 --> 06:55.354
And of course, you could say where you
06:55.392 --> 06:57.490
were and you could remember those things.
06:57.540 --> 06:59.638
But often there's something about what you
06:59.664 --> 07:02.030
are physically doing that is very helpful.
07:02.090 --> 07:06.370
If you can replicate that activity or if
07:06.420 --> 07:09.614
you can even do anything physically active.
07:09.722 --> 07:14.606
There's something about moving out of a chair and walking,
07:14.678 --> 07:19.550
or if your eyes are closed and you're having painful
07:19.610 --> 07:22.094
thoughts or associations to open them up and pay attention
07:22.142 --> 07:24.154
to what you see here and now.
07:24.312 --> 07:29.110
These are simple things that sometimes are so simple,
07:29.160 --> 07:32.530
it's easy to overlook them, but they're crucial because
07:32.640 --> 07:34.882
they can make such a big difference.
07:35.076 --> 07:38.062
And it's important when people try these things, though,
07:38.136 --> 07:42.094
to not give up too fast, to stay with
07:42.132 --> 07:45.600
that for a moment and notice what happens.
07:46.650 --> 07:47.554
That's interesting.
07:47.652 --> 07:49.918
It reminds me when we were doing research
07:50.004 --> 07:53.798
on people participating in the program, we observe
07:53.834 --> 07:56.338
that in the first days or weeks, the
07:56.364 --> 07:58.990
type of solutions that people give sometimes are
07:59.100 --> 08:04.214
a relaxation exercise, breathing, exercise, even sometimes medication.
08:04.382 --> 08:07.354
But after two or three weeks, more and more, the
08:07.392 --> 08:10.798
type of solutions that they started to mention that are
08:10.824 --> 08:14.410
useful are things like I played with my child, I
08:14.460 --> 08:18.514
went for walk with the dog, I was enjoying some
08:18.672 --> 08:21.694
shine or a flower on my way.
08:21.852 --> 08:27.418
So this presentness, present orientation, that's one
08:27.444 --> 08:29.026
of the keys, according to you.
08:29.088 --> 08:30.598
I think it's a beautiful one, and
08:30.624 --> 08:32.426
I think it's easiest to discover.
08:32.498 --> 08:36.046
Maybe at the end of the day, thinking back,
08:36.107 --> 08:38.361
you might think about the moments that were a
08:38.376 --> 08:41.280
little better than others, because there are always some.
08:41.610 --> 08:45.914
And looking back, probably there will be some activities
08:46.082 --> 08:49.740
in there, and resting is an activity too.
08:50.070 --> 08:53.062
And when you think of those, that might be a
08:53.076 --> 08:55.018
hint of what you want to do again or do
08:55.044 --> 08:58.474
more of so by remembering what was useful, what was
08:58.512 --> 09:01.786
pleasant, what was a better moment or less bad moment.
09:01.848 --> 09:05.218
If you're suffering, that's what gives you the energy
09:05.304 --> 09:09.310
and the memory to create the future, to replicate.
09:09.870 --> 09:12.802
So it's a small one, and it shows a
09:12.816 --> 09:15.970
small one, because if someone is suffering from trauma,
09:16.290 --> 09:21.070
whether it's past trauma or more recent or sadness,
09:21.510 --> 09:23.630
I think sometimes people are very weary.
09:23.690 --> 09:25.190
So I don't want to suggest
09:25.250 --> 09:27.254
something that is really exhausting.
09:27.422 --> 09:28.982
So just noticing what helped.
09:29.006 --> 09:32.242
And there will always be something every day,
09:32.436 --> 09:35.222
from moment to moment, there are little differences.
09:35.366 --> 09:37.426
Some moments are a little better than others.
09:37.488 --> 09:40.306
And sometimes you might say, well, the sun came
09:40.368 --> 09:43.138
out, I can't make the sun come out, but
09:43.164 --> 09:45.262
there will be other moments that you were doing
09:45.336 --> 09:47.760
something that you could choose to do again.
09:48.570 --> 09:51.874
But what's so interesting, because I know from experience
09:51.972 --> 09:55.066
in working with clients that this works, but I
09:55.068 --> 09:57.694
know a lot of critics who didn't have that
09:57.732 --> 10:01.090
experience would say, is that not too superficial?
10:02.010 --> 10:03.360
Can that be enough?
10:04.650 --> 10:06.946
Why would this be a reason for hope?
10:07.068 --> 10:08.938
Could you tell something about because now
10:08.964 --> 10:11.422
you're describing what you can do.
10:11.556 --> 10:13.930
But to what type of outcome does
10:13.980 --> 10:17.818
that lead, either by telling about your
10:17.844 --> 10:20.160
practice with people or personal experience?
10:20.670 --> 10:22.138
Why does this work?
10:22.284 --> 10:26.390
Why is this type of small intervention,
10:26.450 --> 10:30.958
small observations, really a useful thing that
10:31.044 --> 10:32.806
can really change your life?
10:32.988 --> 10:37.800
Well, there's actually research for this evidencebased, research
10:39.450 --> 10:42.526
in which it's been shown that the more
10:42.588 --> 10:46.250
we think about or talk about positive experiences,
10:46.430 --> 10:49.930
the more we begin to have those experiences.
10:50.310 --> 10:54.794
And so by deliberately identifying those and then engaging
10:54.842 --> 10:58.798
in some sort of behavior that either replicates them
10:58.824 --> 11:02.460
again, repeats them, or even just thinking about them
11:02.910 --> 11:06.542
will cause us to have more of those associations.
11:06.626 --> 11:08.746
Now, unfortunately, the opposite is true, too.
11:08.808 --> 11:12.934
So sometimes when people are feeling bad, it's very
11:12.972 --> 11:18.250
important to just kind of gently make yourself aware
11:19.650 --> 11:23.650
that it would be helpful to think about the
11:23.700 --> 11:28.534
last time when things were just a little bit
11:28.572 --> 11:30.086
easier, a little more comfortable.
11:30.158 --> 11:31.918
It doesn't have to be a spectacular time.
11:31.944 --> 11:34.222
It just has to be a reasonably okay
11:34.296 --> 11:36.310
time, and it'll start to feel better.
11:36.420 --> 11:37.426
A small difference.
11:37.548 --> 11:39.686
I think the small differences are more valuable.
11:39.758 --> 11:41.522
Yes, just tiny.
11:41.666 --> 11:46.642
And imagine you have a friend or a sister or
11:46.716 --> 11:50.018
a spouse or a loved one with suffering, and it's
11:50.054 --> 11:54.718
so hopeless that they even wouldn't do the effort to
11:54.744 --> 11:57.310
look on the Internet or watch a tape.
11:58.770 --> 12:01.320
What can you do if you care for someone
12:01.950 --> 12:06.142
who is not open in this moment for help?
12:06.336 --> 12:09.900
Because maybe they are too scared or for whatever reason,
12:10.770 --> 12:14.614
how can you be helpful to someone who is not
12:14.652 --> 12:16.862
yet or doesn't seem to be open file?
12:16.886 --> 12:19.150
Because we never know, of course.
12:19.320 --> 12:24.862
Well, you know my colleague Heather Fisk, who wrote a
12:24.876 --> 12:28.798
very nice book called Hope in Action, she says, never
12:28.884 --> 12:31.920
miss an opportunity to say a kind word.
12:32.310 --> 12:36.586
So first of all, I would suggest just being
12:36.648 --> 12:39.946
kind to that person, telling them you care about
12:40.008 --> 12:43.906
them, or more importantly, showing them, inviting them to
12:43.968 --> 12:46.210
go somewhere or do an activity.
12:46.590 --> 12:48.958
Even if they refuse, they have the message
12:49.044 --> 12:51.360
that you wanted to do that with them.
12:52.230 --> 12:54.660
So I think that that makes a huge difference.
12:55.710 --> 12:58.162
And we don't always know what difference it makes,
12:58.236 --> 13:01.774
because unfortunately, sometimes when people need us to reach
13:01.812 --> 13:05.230
out the most, it's hardest for them to respond.
13:06.030 --> 13:08.580
But I think that a kind word.
13:10.710 --> 13:15.922
Expressing the desire that things go better for them.
13:16.116 --> 13:18.550
Expressing the desire that things go better. Yeah.
13:18.600 --> 13:21.178
I want things to go better for you.
13:21.324 --> 13:22.958
And not giving advice.
13:22.994 --> 13:25.870
I think advice almost never works, unfortunately.
13:26.910 --> 13:32.738
But sometimes just being empathic, just accepting what they're
13:32.774 --> 13:35.674
saying because we can't know how hard it is
13:35.712 --> 13:39.454
for another person and then just expressing that we
13:39.492 --> 13:43.294
want things to be better and inviting them to,
13:43.392 --> 13:46.354
I would suggest do something they may not feel
13:46.392 --> 13:48.670
able to, and we have to be nice about
13:48.720 --> 13:52.894
that, too, because they may not feel able to.
13:52.992 --> 13:54.550
But just the offer is good.
13:54.600 --> 13:56.698
How do you do that if you want to
13:56.724 --> 13:59.038
help someone and you're trying to do that and
13:59.064 --> 14:04.126
this person seems like resisting a bit. Sure.
14:04.188 --> 14:08.534
I tend to the one who wants to help to feel rejected.
14:08.642 --> 14:09.058
Yeah.
14:09.144 --> 14:11.578
Because it's like, hey, see how much I want
14:11.604 --> 14:14.400
to help you and you don't want to move.
14:16.230 --> 14:18.538
How can I deal with that I want to
14:18.564 --> 14:24.262
help, and I feel like incapable of helping Well,
14:24.276 --> 14:26.494
I think, first of all, it's important to remember
14:26.592 --> 14:31.342
that what might feel like a very small step
14:31.416 --> 14:34.800
to one person may feel very big to another.
14:35.370 --> 14:39.430
And so to be patient and another one
14:39.600 --> 14:45.922
is to really realize that it may not
14:45.996 --> 14:49.018
be the person who's not responding to us.
14:49.044 --> 14:50.880
It may not be the person who's talking.
14:51.330 --> 14:54.360
It may be the trauma that's responding to us.
14:54.750 --> 14:56.962
I think it's very important to let people
14:57.036 --> 15:00.214
know that we see beyond the problem.
15:00.312 --> 15:05.050
We know that no matter how bad a trauma
15:05.970 --> 15:09.970
or other problem is or was, there's more to
15:10.020 --> 15:16.190
them than that, and we recognize that we do.
15:16.240 --> 15:18.494
And if we communicate, Kate, in a way,
15:18.532 --> 15:20.860
that means that we see more than that.
15:21.490 --> 15:25.026
I think that in itself is uplifting.
15:25.098 --> 15:28.214
I can tell you a story about my mother in law.
15:28.252 --> 15:33.234
My late mother in law had a history of trauma,
15:33.342 --> 15:38.454
and as she became very elderly, she needed medical assistance.
15:38.502 --> 15:41.622
So she had to go to a medical facility
15:41.706 --> 15:44.810
where she would get 24 hours medical help.
15:44.860 --> 15:46.526
And so she couldn't be at home.
15:46.708 --> 15:50.750
And she was understandably very depressed loss of
15:50.860 --> 15:53.510
living at home, loss of her independence.
15:53.890 --> 16:01.082
And I remember just struggling to think of anything I
16:01.096 --> 16:03.050
could do to make it easier for her because I
16:03.100 --> 16:06.182
felt so badly and she was sitting there.
16:06.256 --> 16:10.540
And one of the things that my mother in law
16:10.870 --> 16:14.538
could do was she could play Chopin on the piano.
16:14.694 --> 16:17.394
She had been trained as a concert pianist,
16:17.562 --> 16:20.562
and her hands now were very gnarled.
16:20.706 --> 16:23.798
She couldn't do it so easily and
16:23.824 --> 16:25.238
sometimes did not do it at all.
16:25.264 --> 16:29.022
But when the nursing attendants came in to meet my mother
16:29.046 --> 16:31.598
in law for the first time, I said, this is my
16:31.624 --> 16:35.094
mother in law, and she is a very special woman.
16:35.142 --> 16:37.434
She's trained as a concert pianist.
16:37.602 --> 16:39.698
And I just saw my mother in
16:39.724 --> 16:42.220
law straighten up just a little bit.
16:42.670 --> 16:46.394
And I noticed that a little later she
16:46.432 --> 16:49.240
said, do you have a piano here?
16:50.170 --> 16:55.050
And as it happened, she did not go and play the piano.
16:55.230 --> 16:58.358
But I think it was very important that
16:58.504 --> 17:01.122
the fact that she was a concert pianist
17:01.266 --> 17:03.630
was recognized part of her identity.
17:03.690 --> 17:06.626
Yeah, it's part of who she was. Yes.
17:06.748 --> 17:08.990
And I think that all the good
17:09.040 --> 17:11.200
things that we know about a person.
17:12.069 --> 17:14.478
I don't think it would not have been helpful to remind
17:14.513 --> 17:17.798
her directly to say you're a concert journalist, but to say
17:17.824 --> 17:21.040
it in the sweetest, most indirect way we can.
17:21.730 --> 17:26.634
And if we make our good intentions clear, it's
17:26.682 --> 17:28.878
very difficult for the person to be offended.
17:28.914 --> 17:31.994
It's much easier for them to take them in because
17:32.032 --> 17:35.322
people get sort of grumpy sometimes when they're hurting.
17:35.466 --> 17:37.958
So we need to not take it personally as well.
17:38.104 --> 17:43.214
So like sharing your good intentions, sharing what you
17:43.252 --> 17:47.260
see Besides the trauma and the problem area.
17:48.310 --> 17:52.480
And sharing what you appreciate about the person,
17:52.930 --> 17:55.526
but never tell them what to do or
17:55.528 --> 18:01.420
almost never because it just doesn't work. Yeah.
18:02.530 --> 18:05.150
And it may insult them. Yeah.
18:05.200 --> 18:06.638
And it's so difficult to
18:06.664 --> 18:09.734
stop yourself from giving advice. Yeah.
18:09.892 --> 18:11.162
That's not so easy.
18:11.296 --> 18:14.714
Now, if they ask us for advice, that's different. Okay.
18:14.872 --> 18:18.506
So rule could be that before someone
18:18.568 --> 18:21.122
asks for advice, never give advice. Something like that.
18:21.196 --> 18:23.560
Yeah. Okay.
18:24.670 --> 18:27.482
One of the things that you said that the start
18:27.556 --> 18:34.598
is that you want to help the person observe things
18:34.744 --> 18:37.946
around what they are doing in the present and that
18:38.128 --> 18:41.618
this activates a kind of memory not only on the
18:41.644 --> 18:44.246
memory side, but also on the action side.
18:44.428 --> 18:47.978
And that puts them into action. Yes.
18:48.064 --> 18:50.942
Maybe I think also neurologically, it creates a
18:50.956 --> 18:55.442
new memory because maybe they're walking in the
18:55.456 --> 18:58.094
botanical garden and they've never been there before.
18:58.252 --> 19:01.322
But because you've invited them out there, they feel the
19:01.336 --> 19:06.494
Sunshine and it makes already a little difference is that
19:06.532 --> 19:09.590
like the first stage and later they have to go
19:09.640 --> 19:13.314
deeper to analyze the reasons of the trauma.
19:13.422 --> 19:15.470
Or how does that work?
19:15.520 --> 19:21.146
Because I meet a lot of people who say if you
19:21.208 --> 19:25.430
don't go to the course, you cannot solve the problem.
19:25.600 --> 19:26.786
Is that true?
19:26.968 --> 19:28.934
It is not necessarily true.
19:29.032 --> 19:32.582
Many times what helps people feel better
19:32.656 --> 19:35.440
is not necessarily related to the cause.
19:35.770 --> 19:39.734
Sometimes, though, it's helpful to tell someone and sometimes it
19:39.772 --> 19:43.514
is helpful to look at what led to it.
19:43.552 --> 19:48.110
But if I had to offer people one
19:48.160 --> 19:50.414
thing to help them figure out what would
19:50.452 --> 19:53.642
help, I would do something that's very simple.
19:53.716 --> 19:56.174
And I would only offer this if they ask me.
19:56.332 --> 19:58.190
But I call it scaling.
19:58.990 --> 20:02.966
And what I do is I make just a line.
20:03.028 --> 20:05.860
It's just a simple little horizontal line.
20:06.430 --> 20:10.420
And at one end and that would be the right end.
20:10.750 --> 20:12.126
I make a little arrow.
20:12.198 --> 20:14.380
And over that arrow, I put a ten.
20:15.370 --> 20:17.186
That's the future. Yes.
20:17.368 --> 20:23.990
And the ten is to represent when things are going
20:24.160 --> 20:28.226
so well that the client is very satisfied with life,
20:28.408 --> 20:32.620
living a very satisfying, very rewarding life to them.
20:33.070 --> 20:33.830
Okay.
20:34.000 --> 20:37.146
So they are satisfied, really satisfied
20:37.218 --> 20:38.210
with the quality of life.
20:38.260 --> 20:39.460
Pleased with it.
20:39.850 --> 20:46.874
And zero is before they even realized that they wanted
20:46.912 --> 20:51.182
to make things better, before they even thought about I
20:51.196 --> 20:54.026
need to do something to make it better. Yeah.
20:54.208 --> 20:59.618
And I like to invite them to make a Mark wherever they
20:59.644 --> 21:05.154
are and to ask themselves what are they doing that has helped
21:05.202 --> 21:08.666
already, even a little bit or maybe even a lot.
21:08.728 --> 21:10.034
But what are they doing that
21:10.072 --> 21:11.680
would be important to continue.
21:12.850 --> 21:15.760
So asking what they were doing already
21:16.330 --> 21:18.266
to get where they are now. Yeah.
21:18.328 --> 21:19.622
Even to get to this point.
21:19.696 --> 21:21.278
I mean, maybe there have been
21:21.364 --> 21:23.140
many days that were not easy.
21:23.770 --> 21:27.062
I also like to invite them.
21:27.256 --> 21:34.190
Sometimes it really helps to imagine that suddenly you find
21:34.240 --> 21:39.926
yourself a point higher or half a point higher, how
21:39.988 --> 21:42.614
would you discover that you were a point higher?
21:42.772 --> 21:43.730
What would be different?
21:43.780 --> 21:46.082
What would you see yourself doing or saying,
21:46.276 --> 21:48.722
that's a different question than asking yourself, what
21:48.736 --> 21:50.282
should I do to get higher?
21:50.356 --> 21:51.878
It is a different question. Yeah.
21:51.904 --> 21:53.262
And I chose that because I think it's
21:53.286 --> 21:55.910
a little easier sometimes if suddenly you found
21:55.960 --> 22:00.520
yourself a point higher, like by accident. Yeah.
22:01.150 --> 22:02.582
What would be different?
22:02.776 --> 22:05.054
Sometimes that's a little easier to think of
22:05.092 --> 22:07.214
because as I said, sometimes if people are
22:07.252 --> 22:08.858
sad, they're feeling not much energy.
22:08.944 --> 22:11.800
So rather than even saying, oh, what would it take?
22:12.190 --> 22:14.846
How would I know I was there, what would I be doing?
22:15.028 --> 22:18.520
And sometimes if they think about what they were doing,
22:19.270 --> 22:23.054
that was someone I know, someone I was talking to
22:23.092 --> 22:25.898
just recently, and he said, well, I would leave the
22:25.924 --> 22:30.110
house, and what would you be doing outside the house?
22:30.220 --> 22:32.354
And he came up with some things already.
22:32.452 --> 22:35.478
He identified then that leaving
22:35.514 --> 22:36.880
the house made a difference.
22:37.690 --> 22:40.866
And as many details of how you would discover
22:40.938 --> 22:43.202
you were even a little bit higher, it's good.
22:43.276 --> 22:46.542
It's also really good to just appreciate anything you're
22:46.566 --> 22:49.434
doing that has gotten you that you survived.
22:49.602 --> 22:52.118
And you're at this point where you know
22:52.144 --> 22:53.498
you want to make it feel better.
22:53.584 --> 22:55.382
And wherever you are, whatever it
22:55.396 --> 22:56.860
would be important to continue.
22:57.610 --> 23:02.738
People sometimes are very modest about the things that
23:02.764 --> 23:06.830
they have already done that are helpful, sometimes even
23:06.880 --> 23:10.202
just remembering to get out of bed, making yourself
23:10.276 --> 23:13.046
get out of bed, doing those daily care things.
23:13.168 --> 23:15.014
People take those for granted sometimes.
23:15.112 --> 23:16.682
Other times they really appreciate them.
23:16.696 --> 23:20.882
But either way, they're good things. Yeah.
23:21.076 --> 23:25.238
By asking this type of scaling question, you
23:25.264 --> 23:28.994
can help someone you love to see.
23:29.092 --> 23:30.398
It's something like seeing the
23:30.424 --> 23:32.030
Gray between black and white.
23:32.140 --> 23:33.122
I think so.
23:33.256 --> 23:37.538
I also know that when we ask questions about how would
23:37.564 --> 23:40.778
you discover that you were just feeling just a little bit
23:40.804 --> 23:44.162
better or a point higher, or what would it take?
23:44.236 --> 23:45.374
Either of those questions?
23:45.532 --> 23:48.014
It engages the evaluative part of our
23:48.052 --> 23:51.770
brain, and that tends, in my experience,
23:51.940 --> 23:54.374
to counterbalance some of the pain.
23:54.532 --> 23:58.274
It gives us a little bit of
23:58.312 --> 24:00.542
relief just by thinking about it.
24:00.616 --> 24:03.122
You mean that it's activating another part of
24:03.136 --> 24:05.210
the brain and the pain center or something.
24:05.380 --> 24:08.058
And Paul, you could probably speak more cogently
24:08.094 --> 24:10.130
about that because you are a doctor.
24:10.630 --> 24:12.362
I see it over and over again.
24:12.436 --> 24:14.942
I see people's faces get a
24:14.956 --> 24:17.918
little brighter, just a little bit.
24:17.944 --> 24:19.120
You know what I mean? Yeah.
24:20.950 --> 24:22.622
Even a micro sicken to see
24:22.636 --> 24:25.660
the sparkle, something like that. Yeah.
24:26.110 --> 24:32.402
I also like to ask who do they know who would
24:32.476 --> 24:36.614
be happy or happy to see that they have moved up
24:36.652 --> 24:40.118
a little bit on the scale, whom they know around them?
24:40.144 --> 24:40.586
Yeah.
24:40.708 --> 24:45.134
Because often you can ask them, well, how would
24:45.172 --> 24:47.702
that person, what would they see you doing that
24:47.716 --> 24:50.210
would tell them you were doing a little better.
24:50.380 --> 24:53.138
And I know that we say all the
24:53.164 --> 24:55.986
time in our society, oh, don't pretend.
24:56.178 --> 25:00.002
But sometimes taking oneself by the hand
25:00.076 --> 25:02.150
and just pretending to be a point
25:02.200 --> 25:06.290
higher can strangely help us feel better.
25:06.340 --> 25:08.966
I remember when I was in high school,
25:09.028 --> 25:10.910
I was a very shy little girl.
25:10.960 --> 25:12.374
You would not guess it now.
25:12.532 --> 25:14.870
And I had a friend who was a cheerleader.
25:15.430 --> 25:19.994
And my friend confided to me that when
25:20.032 --> 25:23.198
she was feeling depressed, sometimes it helped if
25:23.224 --> 25:25.682
she just had to make an effort because
25:25.696 --> 25:27.854
she was a cheerleader for the football team.
25:27.952 --> 25:29.738
She noticed that if she went out and
25:29.764 --> 25:32.942
did that afterwards, she strangely felt better.
25:33.136 --> 25:35.618
And she said, It seems really strange to
25:35.644 --> 25:37.638
be cheering when I don't feel like cheering.
25:37.734 --> 25:39.098
I have to, though, because it's part
25:39.124 --> 25:40.802
of my role in the school.
25:40.936 --> 25:43.490
But I got fascinated back then and I thought,
25:43.540 --> 25:45.722
well, I don't feel like going for a walk,
25:45.796 --> 25:48.640
but my dog really would like a walk.
25:48.970 --> 25:52.322
And strangely enough, I always felt better when I took
25:52.336 --> 25:54.698
my dog for a walk and I was pretending to
25:54.724 --> 25:56.666
feel good enough to take him for a walk.
25:56.848 --> 26:00.594
And so maybe a little bit of gentle pretending.
26:00.642 --> 26:03.654
That doesn't mean not acknowledging that you hurt,
26:03.762 --> 26:06.794
but it means looking for a different part
26:06.832 --> 26:08.718
of the brain to comfort oneself.
26:08.814 --> 26:12.078
So it's different than faking something pretending.
26:12.114 --> 26:14.406
It's like it's deliberate.
26:14.538 --> 26:15.546
It's a free choice.
26:15.618 --> 26:18.042
It's a deliberate free choice, and it's still authentic,
26:18.126 --> 26:23.354
and it's for the purpose of making things better. Okay.
26:23.512 --> 26:27.170
So it's not to manipulate anybody, but to help oneself.
26:27.490 --> 26:29.658
And it's because you make a deliberate,
26:29.694 --> 26:32.582
positive choice to work for the better
26:32.656 --> 26:34.960
either for yourself or for someone else.
26:35.590 --> 26:38.222
That makes the difference between because sometimes
26:38.296 --> 26:40.670
people would say, yeah, but that's fake.
26:41.410 --> 26:44.630
I'm already pretending all the time to be happy.
26:44.800 --> 26:48.878
But it's not that type of faking to be
26:48.904 --> 26:53.658
happy that you mean, can I use this metaphor?
26:53.694 --> 26:58.386
Once I was having a client who was an actor,
26:58.518 --> 27:00.700
and he was one of the best of our country.
27:01.150 --> 27:06.662
And when his spouse came in my office, he
27:06.676 --> 27:09.890
said, you know, when he's acting and he's doing
27:10.000 --> 27:13.502
a role and with a lot of success, even
27:13.576 --> 27:17.018
months after he was playing that character, I can
27:17.044 --> 27:19.550
see that character and the behaviors in the house.
27:19.720 --> 27:22.206
And she said, that's how I know my husband
27:22.278 --> 27:25.998
is a good actor, because he acts so congruently
27:26.034 --> 27:31.130
that he's fully the person that he is acting.
27:31.570 --> 27:34.178
And so that makes me think that pretending would be
27:34.204 --> 27:40.074
like a good actor who is really fully into the
27:40.112 --> 27:45.918
role of that what is acting, making a deliberate, honest
27:46.004 --> 27:49.266
choice and effort, just as you say.
27:49.388 --> 27:51.622
I think that is a very good description.
27:51.766 --> 27:54.798
And the reason I think it's important is it
27:54.824 --> 27:57.858
is something that we can actually choose to do
27:58.004 --> 28:01.494
as opposed to persuading and hoping that things get
28:01.532 --> 28:04.938
better, which can be very painful I think the
28:04.964 --> 28:10.014
fact that we're doing something can in some ways
28:10.112 --> 28:13.038
already bring a little bit of comfort. Yeah.
28:13.064 --> 28:15.294
It's like you feel you do something for you.
28:15.452 --> 28:17.142
And is that something you can do as
28:17.156 --> 28:21.774
well for yourself as with someone beloved one?
28:21.932 --> 28:24.942
Because I imagine that if I would do that to someone
28:25.016 --> 28:28.038
I like and not in the role of therapist, but as
28:28.064 --> 28:30.282
a friend, that I would say, hey, what do you get?
28:30.356 --> 28:31.520
I'm not a number.
28:32.870 --> 28:36.690
I'm no numbers, but it seems to work. Yes.
28:36.740 --> 28:40.098
I think it can be used really nicely as
28:40.124 --> 28:45.450
a self help tool for emotional self regulation.
28:47.330 --> 28:49.662
You can choose to use it as a
28:49.676 --> 28:51.922
way to make life a little easier.
28:52.066 --> 28:56.202
The idea is that ten is when you are
28:56.276 --> 28:59.526
completely content and happy, as you can imagine, being
28:59.708 --> 29:03.522
zero is before you even began to imagine this.
29:03.596 --> 29:04.690
Just the opposite.
29:04.810 --> 29:06.020
Where are you now?
29:06.470 --> 29:09.718
And it just even asking oneself, it begins
29:09.754 --> 29:11.898
to change the neurology a little bit. Yeah.
29:11.924 --> 29:13.026
You're shooting. Yes.
29:13.088 --> 29:16.770
And then coming up with the next small step, that
29:16.820 --> 29:21.286
something that would tell you better also has that impact.
29:21.358 --> 29:23.550
So even thinking about it helps.
29:23.870 --> 29:27.046
So even if you even don't have the courage
29:27.118 --> 29:31.554
to do something proactively with it, just thinking is
29:31.592 --> 29:35.082
already a therapeutic or useful step forward.
29:35.216 --> 29:36.990
That's been my observation over
29:37.040 --> 29:38.730
and over again with people.
29:38.900 --> 29:42.322
And it's a very nice activity
29:42.406 --> 29:44.050
because you can do it silently.
29:44.110 --> 29:45.630
No one knows you're doing. Yes.
29:45.680 --> 29:46.678
That's an advantage.
29:46.774 --> 29:49.770
And it also helps people, I think, think
29:49.820 --> 29:53.814
more clearly because sometimes when painful experiences or
29:53.852 --> 29:57.378
memories come up, it's harder to think clearly. Yeah.
29:57.404 --> 29:59.862
Just like closing your mind.
29:59.996 --> 30:03.370
And this causes us, I think, to shift
30:03.490 --> 30:06.330
just a little bit and to help us
30:06.380 --> 30:10.890
think with another part of the brain, literally.
30:11.690 --> 30:15.898
So I offer it it is my own favorite selfregulation
30:15.994 --> 30:18.594
tool, because when things do you use it for yourself?
30:18.632 --> 30:19.014
Oh, sure.
30:19.052 --> 30:22.458
When I'm very exhausted, I'm 63 years old.
30:22.484 --> 30:24.450
And so sometimes I get very, very tired.
30:24.890 --> 30:26.334
But that's physical. Oh, sure.
30:26.372 --> 30:29.000
But when you're physically tired, sometimes
30:30.770 --> 30:34.114
problems seem bigger than I do. When you're not tired.
30:34.222 --> 30:35.730
And I'm trying to think, OK,
30:35.780 --> 30:37.350
what would be helpful here?
30:37.520 --> 30:41.874
If I put it on a scale almost
30:41.972 --> 30:46.474
immediately, I feel a little bit less overwhelmed.
30:46.522 --> 30:48.798
And I hear that from other people all the time.
30:48.944 --> 30:52.410
So I really encourage people to try using
30:52.460 --> 30:55.234
the scale as a self help technique.
30:55.282 --> 30:57.474
Then they don't even have to tell anybody about it.
30:57.572 --> 30:59.890
Even you use it on micromoments.
31:00.010 --> 31:01.186
On micromoments.
31:01.258 --> 31:02.670
How do I feel right now?
31:02.780 --> 31:07.098
If ten was fabulous and zero was, I
31:07.124 --> 31:09.090
wouldn't even be bothering to think about it.
31:09.140 --> 31:09.906
Where am I now?
31:09.968 --> 31:11.962
And what's helping?
31:12.046 --> 31:14.082
What might make it a little better?
31:14.276 --> 31:19.918
And a friend of mine lost a loved
31:19.954 --> 31:25.062
one, and he told me he used it.
31:25.196 --> 31:32.034
And a young person I know, just 24 years old, she
31:32.132 --> 31:36.954
and her boyfriend broke up the first big romance in her
31:36.992 --> 31:38.886
life, and it had gone on for two years.
31:39.008 --> 31:41.206
It's unbelievably terrible.
31:41.278 --> 31:45.886
And she said that scaling every day she would scale
31:45.958 --> 31:50.466
because it would help give her an idea of one
31:50.528 --> 31:53.322
little thing, even with little that she could do to
31:53.336 --> 31:55.170
make herself feel a little bit better.
31:55.220 --> 31:56.898
And she said the little things often were
31:56.924 --> 31:59.310
more helpful because they weren't so intimidating.
32:01.190 --> 32:04.482
She said, well, maybe if I can play a
32:04.496 --> 32:09.020
computer game for a minute, or maybe if I
32:09.950 --> 32:12.190
went and got an ice cream cone.
32:12.370 --> 32:15.010
These were not rocket science.
32:15.070 --> 32:16.878
These were not these huge things.
32:17.024 --> 32:18.942
But that was exactly why she said
32:19.016 --> 32:21.154
they were helpful, because they were accessible.
32:21.322 --> 32:23.754
And sometimes when she couldn't think of any, she'd say,
32:23.792 --> 32:26.646
okay, well, when did I feel even a little better?
32:26.708 --> 32:28.906
When were things even a little more bearable?
32:29.098 --> 32:31.938
And she could think of them.
32:31.964 --> 32:36.522
Then, of course, eventually she decided that one of
32:36.536 --> 32:38.598
the things that might make her feel better would
32:38.624 --> 32:42.080
be to accept a date with somebody else.
32:45.090 --> 32:46.680
I think she's on the road.
32:48.630 --> 32:50.700
That's wonderful. Yeah.
32:51.150 --> 32:53.734
So it sounds like you are opening a
32:53.772 --> 32:56.522
dialogue with yourself, a kind of positive dialogue.
32:56.546 --> 32:57.120
Right.
32:57.510 --> 32:59.710
What's different than what you hear sometimes about
32:59.760 --> 33:03.622
positive thinking where people feel like I have
33:03.636 --> 33:05.918
to force myself to think positively.
33:05.954 --> 33:08.302
But this is more like a dialogue where
33:08.316 --> 33:11.938
you invite yourself to think about small steps. Yes.
33:11.964 --> 33:14.434
And it's a deliberate choice to think about them.
33:14.532 --> 33:18.238
As you said, it's a positive choice, which I think
33:18.264 --> 33:20.086
is a very good way to look at it.
33:20.148 --> 33:24.838
And also, if you're trying to help somebody and you
33:24.864 --> 33:27.578
want to teach them scaling, first of all, I'd hesitate.
33:27.614 --> 33:31.078
But then I'd say, would it be okay if
33:31.104 --> 33:35.820
I showed you something that maybe would help?
33:37.470 --> 33:41.158
Or I heard about this and I would
33:41.184 --> 33:42.802
suggest if someone's going to offer it to
33:42.816 --> 33:45.646
a friend, they try it themselves first. Yeah.
33:45.708 --> 33:48.370
So that you know how it feels.
33:49.170 --> 33:54.370
What's nice about it is it's not just wanting to feel
33:54.420 --> 33:58.318
better, but it's kind of making a bridge between how you
33:58.344 --> 34:02.902
feel now and better because you make a little line and
34:02.916 --> 34:04.750
the line is almost in a sense of road.
34:04.800 --> 34:08.614
Just like when you are driving down the highway and
34:08.652 --> 34:12.034
you see an arrow and it says if you stay
34:12.072 --> 34:15.250
on this highway, you'll get to whatever the town is.
34:15.360 --> 34:17.641
When you do it this way, it sends
34:17.666 --> 34:20.866
you the message, yes, I will get there. I'm on the road.
34:20.928 --> 34:23.558
There's a road map or beginning of a road map.
34:23.594 --> 34:25.570
That's also the comfort of knowing you're going
34:25.620 --> 34:27.960
in the direction you want to go in.
34:29.370 --> 34:30.094
Okay. Yeah.
34:30.132 --> 34:33.717
Because by answering where is your ten?
34:33.864 --> 34:36.393
You are indicating where your
34:36.431 --> 34:37.980
desired life is, of course.
34:38.489 --> 34:41.040
And that implies that there is a desired life.
34:41.850 --> 34:44.482
And if that's too much for someone to think about sometimes,
34:44.556 --> 34:47.040
just how would I know that I was feeling better?
34:47.429 --> 34:49.114
What would I be doing that
34:49.152 --> 34:50.929
also puts you in that direction.
34:50.989 --> 34:52.306
So that would be the very
34:52.368 --> 34:53.998
smallest version that works too.
34:54.083 --> 34:56.626
How would I know that I'm feeling better? Yeah.
34:56.748 --> 34:59.686
Can like a deeply depressed person
34:59.808 --> 35:01.234
answer that type of question?
35:01.332 --> 35:05.050
Because it might be sometimes it's very hard so sometimes
35:05.160 --> 35:09.850
it's easier to ask yourself what would give someone else
35:09.900 --> 35:13.200
who knows me the idea that I was feeling better?
35:14.070 --> 35:17.782
My mom, my best friend, even my dog?
35:17.856 --> 35:19.150
I know dogs can't talk.
35:19.200 --> 35:21.670
Cats can't talk, but they can be so comfortable.
35:22.170 --> 35:24.202
What would give my cat or dog
35:24.276 --> 35:26.950
the idea that I was feeling better?
35:27.060 --> 35:30.466
And often that is another hint at something.
35:30.648 --> 35:33.574
Even a small thing would be the smallest sign.
35:33.612 --> 35:36.382
The first sign, the smaller the better
35:36.456 --> 35:39.070
because you can do them pretty easily. Yeah.
35:39.120 --> 35:41.462
And you don't lose courage because it's
35:41.486 --> 35:43.498
doable and you're already thinking about it
35:43.524 --> 35:46.246
so that you've already taken a step. Wow.
35:46.308 --> 35:47.220
That's great.
35:49.050 --> 35:51.694
I think we shared a lot with the people watching
35:51.792 --> 35:55.814
the interview, so I'm very grateful to you I'm grateful
35:55.862 --> 35:59.182
to all the inspiration you gave me also when I
35:59.196 --> 36:02.378
was developing the program, there's a lot of your ideas
36:02.414 --> 36:08.518
that are intermingled in the way of thinking, so you
36:08.604 --> 36:11.638
help more people than you even know with your work.
36:11.784 --> 36:13.094
Thank you for that, Paul.
36:13.142 --> 36:15.880
And I want you to know I deeply respect your work.
More videos like this
Nora Bateson about Gregory Bateson & Systems Thinking
Philip Mast, MD about how 15Minutes4Me.com helps his patients
Paul Koeck, MD’s TEDx talk about ‘How to reduce your stress with “15Minutes4Me.com” ‘
Robert Dilts about Selfhelp with NLP
REBT by Albert Ellis with Debbie Joffe Ellis
Burnout Prevention: What is Burnout?