Yvonne Dolan: How Solution Focused Selfhelp heals PTSD & Trauma

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Hi, Yvonne.

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It's a pleasure to talk with you.

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We have been friends for I don't know how

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many years, I guess close to 20 years probably.

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And I'm quite inspired by your work and in the

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program that we were developing, your ideas and work have

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contributed a lot in finding out how to develop it.

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So you are a great help.

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And 20 years ago, something like that, you wrote

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your first selfhelp book on post traumatic stress, how

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people with a history of abuse or any type

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of post traumatic stress find ways to help themselves.

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And what I would like to learn from you

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in this interview and to share also with the

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audience who is watching the video interview, I would

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like to find out why did you write something

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where people can learn to help themselves?

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Because in the past, people thought that only psychotherapy is

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a good way to help, and it's a very good

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way, but a lot of people are scared, so they

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look for other ways to either help a family member

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who is suffering or find ways to help themselves.

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And I would like to find out what is

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the core message that we should share professionals with

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people who are looking for relief of pain, looking

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for hope for a new future.

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What's the secret of healing, of

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becoming happy again after suffering.

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What's the secret? Okay.

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Well, the first thing, Paul, is that one of the

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reasons I chose to write a self help book was

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that I agree, psychotherapy is a wonderful resource, and sometimes

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it's not available when people need it the most at

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03:00 in the morning and sometimes people are fearful.

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So that was why I wrote it.

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What I believe is just the fact that someone is looking

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for help is one of the signs that they are already

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beginning to move in the direction beyond the trauma.

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So do you mean that someone who

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accidentally or not, is watching this video

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tape might be already looking for help?

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And that's for you first sign of

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healing or the beginning of healing?

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Is that what you're saying? Yes.

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It might be the beginning or they may

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be farther along than the beginning, but maybe

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something happened to temporarily set them back.

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Often there are many signs of healing.

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And wherever they are in their journey, just

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the fact they want things to be better

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means that they have made some movement already.

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That's helpful because a lot of people often are

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disqualifying themselves and thinking, I want a solution, but

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I don't know how to do it.

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So I'm stuck.

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And you are saying the fact that you already are

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wanting is a first step, that's what you are saying?

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Yes.

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I think they're already on the

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journey, and I mean it sincerely. Yeah.

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And just even recognizing that there's something that is

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hurting, in a sense, is the beginning of a

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journey because it says that they're wanting it to

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not hurt they're wanting it to be better.

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And that's anytime you're wanting something to

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be better, you've begun a journey.

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Even if you did not choose

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the journey, you've begun it.

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And that's helpful.

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So the desire for a change or for better life

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is the beginning of the therapy or the cell. Yeah.

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And then I think there are two or three things

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that really stand out after working with people with a

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history of trauma, and I personally have that history as

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well, after working with them for almost 40 years.

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One of the things that has stood out for me

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over the years is that people with a history of

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trauma, often when the trauma comes up or pain related

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to the trauma comes up, there's a tendency to think

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that that is the whole world.

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That is your whole world at that moment, because

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the experience is so powerful, it feels different.

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The first thing is it's very helpful.

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People can remember to tell themselves, even if it

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feels like this horrible feeling is going to go

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on and last forever, it absolutely won't. Okay.

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Just to realize that it's a period of your

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life, but not everything, because it feels terrifying.

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The symptoms feel terrifying if you think they

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won't ever go away sometimes, but they do

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go away and they go away physiologically.

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They go away in time, and they also

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go away in terms of going away because

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we do something to replace them with other

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feelings, feelings of comfort, feelings of wellbeing.

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And psychotherapy is a wonderful tool for that.

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Another tool that's a very simple tool is for

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the person to do something in the present.

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Something physically. Physically. In the present. Yes.

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That occupies their attention.

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It can be as simple as going for a walk.

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I've seen people do knitting.

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Just something that really causes us to focus

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on the present is a way to get

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a little bit of relief right there. Okay.

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So your brain is not fully occupied with the suffering.

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There's already some part of your focus, and

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your brain who is dealing with something else,

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something more useful, more pleasurable, more.

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It's another path to the present, and there's

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a lot of comfort in the present.

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Often people get a lot of benefit

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from very active things, like playing tennis.

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And I think that it's very individual.

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But I would encourage people to think about times

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in their life when they have felt better.

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What are they doing?

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So the memory of what you were doing when

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you felt better at some moment in the past. Yeah.

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And of course, you could say where you

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were and you could remember those things.

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But often there's something about what you

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are physically doing that is very helpful.

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If you can replicate that activity or if

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you can even do anything physically active.

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There's something about moving out of a chair and walking,

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or if your eyes are closed and you're having painful

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thoughts or associations to open them up and pay attention

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to what you see here and now.

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These are simple things that sometimes are so simple,

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it's easy to overlook them, but they're crucial because

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they can make such a big difference.

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And it's important when people try these things, though,

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to not give up too fast, to stay with

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that for a moment and notice what happens.

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That's interesting.

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It reminds me when we were doing research

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on people participating in the program, we observe

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that in the first days or weeks, the

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type of solutions that people give sometimes are

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a relaxation exercise, breathing, exercise, even sometimes medication.

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But after two or three weeks, more and more, the

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type of solutions that they started to mention that are

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useful are things like I played with my child, I

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went for walk with the dog, I was enjoying some

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shine or a flower on my way.

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So this presentness, present orientation, that's one

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of the keys, according to you.

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I think it's a beautiful one, and

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I think it's easiest to discover.

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Maybe at the end of the day, thinking back,

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you might think about the moments that were a

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little better than others, because there are always some.

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And looking back, probably there will be some activities

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in there, and resting is an activity too.

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And when you think of those, that might be a

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hint of what you want to do again or do

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more of so by remembering what was useful, what was

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pleasant, what was a better moment or less bad moment.

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If you're suffering, that's what gives you the energy

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and the memory to create the future, to replicate.

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So it's a small one, and it shows a

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small one, because if someone is suffering from trauma,

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whether it's past trauma or more recent or sadness,

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I think sometimes people are very weary.

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So I don't want to suggest

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something that is really exhausting.

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So just noticing what helped.

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And there will always be something every day,

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from moment to moment, there are little differences.

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Some moments are a little better than others.

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And sometimes you might say, well, the sun came

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out, I can't make the sun come out, but

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there will be other moments that you were doing

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something that you could choose to do again.

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But what's so interesting, because I know from experience

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in working with clients that this works, but I

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know a lot of critics who didn't have that

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experience would say, is that not too superficial?

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Can that be enough?

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Why would this be a reason for hope?

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Could you tell something about because now

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you're describing what you can do.

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But to what type of outcome does

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that lead, either by telling about your

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practice with people or personal experience?

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Why does this work?

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Why is this type of small intervention,

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small observations, really a useful thing that

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can really change your life?

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Well, there's actually research for this evidencebased, research

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in which it's been shown that the more

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we think about or talk about positive experiences,

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the more we begin to have those experiences.

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And so by deliberately identifying those and then engaging

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in some sort of behavior that either replicates them

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again, repeats them, or even just thinking about them

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will cause us to have more of those associations.

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Now, unfortunately, the opposite is true, too.

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So sometimes when people are feeling bad, it's very

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important to just kind of gently make yourself aware

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that it would be helpful to think about the

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last time when things were just a little bit

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easier, a little more comfortable.

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It doesn't have to be a spectacular time.

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It just has to be a reasonably okay

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time, and it'll start to feel better.

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A small difference.

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I think the small differences are more valuable.

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Yes, just tiny.

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And imagine you have a friend or a sister or

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a spouse or a loved one with suffering, and it's

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so hopeless that they even wouldn't do the effort to

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look on the Internet or watch a tape.

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What can you do if you care for someone

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who is not open in this moment for help?

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Because maybe they are too scared or for whatever reason,

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how can you be helpful to someone who is not

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yet or doesn't seem to be open file?

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Because we never know, of course.

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Well, you know my colleague Heather Fisk, who wrote a

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very nice book called Hope in Action, she says, never

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miss an opportunity to say a kind word.

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So first of all, I would suggest just being

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kind to that person, telling them you care about

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them, or more importantly, showing them, inviting them to

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go somewhere or do an activity.

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Even if they refuse, they have the message

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that you wanted to do that with them.

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So I think that that makes a huge difference.

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And we don't always know what difference it makes,

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because unfortunately, sometimes when people need us to reach

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out the most, it's hardest for them to respond.

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But I think that a kind word.

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Expressing the desire that things go better for them.

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Expressing the desire that things go better. Yeah.

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I want things to go better for you.

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And not giving advice.

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I think advice almost never works, unfortunately.

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But sometimes just being empathic, just accepting what they're

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saying because we can't know how hard it is

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for another person and then just expressing that we

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want things to be better and inviting them to,

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I would suggest do something they may not feel

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able to, and we have to be nice about

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that, too, because they may not feel able to.

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But just the offer is good.

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How do you do that if you want to

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help someone and you're trying to do that and

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this person seems like resisting a bit. Sure.

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I tend to the one who wants to help to feel rejected.

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Yeah.

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Because it's like, hey, see how much I want

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to help you and you don't want to move.

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How can I deal with that I want to

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help, and I feel like incapable of helping Well,

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I think, first of all, it's important to remember

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that what might feel like a very small step

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to one person may feel very big to another.

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And so to be patient and another one

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is to really realize that it may not

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be the person who's not responding to us.

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It may not be the person who's talking.

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It may be the trauma that's responding to us.

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I think it's very important to let people

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know that we see beyond the problem.

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We know that no matter how bad a trauma

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or other problem is or was, there's more to

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them than that, and we recognize that we do.

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And if we communicate, Kate, in a way,

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that means that we see more than that.

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I think that in itself is uplifting.

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I can tell you a story about my mother in law.

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My late mother in law had a history of trauma,

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and as she became very elderly, she needed medical assistance.

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So she had to go to a medical facility

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where she would get 24 hours medical help.

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And so she couldn't be at home.

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And she was understandably very depressed loss of

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living at home, loss of her independence.

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And I remember just struggling to think of anything I

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could do to make it easier for her because I

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felt so badly and she was sitting there.

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And one of the things that my mother in law

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could do was she could play Chopin on the piano.

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She had been trained as a concert pianist,

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and her hands now were very gnarled.

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She couldn't do it so easily and

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sometimes did not do it at all.

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But when the nursing attendants came in to meet my mother

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in law for the first time, I said, this is my

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mother in law, and she is a very special woman.

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She's trained as a concert pianist.

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And I just saw my mother in

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law straighten up just a little bit.

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And I noticed that a little later she

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said, do you have a piano here?

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And as it happened, she did not go and play the piano.

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But I think it was very important that

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the fact that she was a concert pianist

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was recognized part of her identity.

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Yeah, it's part of who she was. Yes.

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And I think that all the good

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things that we know about a person.

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I don't think it would not have been helpful to remind

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her directly to say you're a concert journalist, but to say

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it in the sweetest, most indirect way we can.

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And if we make our good intentions clear, it's

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very difficult for the person to be offended.

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It's much easier for them to take them in because

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people get sort of grumpy sometimes when they're hurting.

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So we need to not take it personally as well.

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So like sharing your good intentions, sharing what you

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see Besides the trauma and the problem area.

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And sharing what you appreciate about the person,

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but never tell them what to do or

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almost never because it just doesn't work. Yeah.

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And it may insult them. Yeah.

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And it's so difficult to

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stop yourself from giving advice. Yeah.

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That's not so easy.

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Now, if they ask us for advice, that's different. Okay.

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So rule could be that before someone

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asks for advice, never give advice. Something like that.

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Yeah. Okay.

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One of the things that you said that the start

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is that you want to help the person observe things

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around what they are doing in the present and that

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this activates a kind of memory not only on the

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memory side, but also on the action side.

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And that puts them into action. Yes.

18:48.064 --> 18:50.942
Maybe I think also neurologically, it creates a

18:50.956 --> 18:55.442
new memory because maybe they're walking in the

18:55.456 --> 18:58.094
botanical garden and they've never been there before.

18:58.252 --> 19:01.322
But because you've invited them out there, they feel the

19:01.336 --> 19:06.494
Sunshine and it makes already a little difference is that

19:06.532 --> 19:09.590
like the first stage and later they have to go

19:09.640 --> 19:13.314
deeper to analyze the reasons of the trauma.

19:13.422 --> 19:15.470
Or how does that work?

19:15.520 --> 19:21.146
Because I meet a lot of people who say if you

19:21.208 --> 19:25.430
don't go to the course, you cannot solve the problem.

19:25.600 --> 19:26.786
Is that true?

19:26.968 --> 19:28.934
It is not necessarily true.

19:29.032 --> 19:32.582
Many times what helps people feel better

19:32.656 --> 19:35.440
is not necessarily related to the cause.

19:35.770 --> 19:39.734
Sometimes, though, it's helpful to tell someone and sometimes it

19:39.772 --> 19:43.514
is helpful to look at what led to it.

19:43.552 --> 19:48.110
But if I had to offer people one

19:48.160 --> 19:50.414
thing to help them figure out what would

19:50.452 --> 19:53.642
help, I would do something that's very simple.

19:53.716 --> 19:56.174
And I would only offer this if they ask me.

19:56.332 --> 19:58.190
But I call it scaling.

19:58.990 --> 20:02.966
And what I do is I make just a line.

20:03.028 --> 20:05.860
It's just a simple little horizontal line.

20:06.430 --> 20:10.420
And at one end and that would be the right end.

20:10.750 --> 20:12.126
I make a little arrow.

20:12.198 --> 20:14.380
And over that arrow, I put a ten.

20:15.370 --> 20:17.186
That's the future. Yes.

20:17.368 --> 20:23.990
And the ten is to represent when things are going

20:24.160 --> 20:28.226
so well that the client is very satisfied with life,

20:28.408 --> 20:32.620
living a very satisfying, very rewarding life to them.

20:33.070 --> 20:33.830
Okay.

20:34.000 --> 20:37.146
So they are satisfied, really satisfied

20:37.218 --> 20:38.210
with the quality of life.

20:38.260 --> 20:39.460
Pleased with it.

20:39.850 --> 20:46.874
And zero is before they even realized that they wanted

20:46.912 --> 20:51.182
to make things better, before they even thought about I

20:51.196 --> 20:54.026
need to do something to make it better. Yeah.

20:54.208 --> 20:59.618
And I like to invite them to make a Mark wherever they

20:59.644 --> 21:05.154
are and to ask themselves what are they doing that has helped

21:05.202 --> 21:08.666
already, even a little bit or maybe even a lot.

21:08.728 --> 21:10.034
But what are they doing that

21:10.072 --> 21:11.680
would be important to continue.

21:12.850 --> 21:15.760
So asking what they were doing already

21:16.330 --> 21:18.266
to get where they are now. Yeah.

21:18.328 --> 21:19.622
Even to get to this point.

21:19.696 --> 21:21.278
I mean, maybe there have been

21:21.364 --> 21:23.140
many days that were not easy.

21:23.770 --> 21:27.062
I also like to invite them.

21:27.256 --> 21:34.190
Sometimes it really helps to imagine that suddenly you find

21:34.240 --> 21:39.926
yourself a point higher or half a point higher, how

21:39.988 --> 21:42.614
would you discover that you were a point higher?

21:42.772 --> 21:43.730
What would be different?

21:43.780 --> 21:46.082
What would you see yourself doing or saying,

21:46.276 --> 21:48.722
that's a different question than asking yourself, what

21:48.736 --> 21:50.282
should I do to get higher?

21:50.356 --> 21:51.878
It is a different question. Yeah.

21:51.904 --> 21:53.262
And I chose that because I think it's

21:53.286 --> 21:55.910
a little easier sometimes if suddenly you found

21:55.960 --> 22:00.520
yourself a point higher, like by accident. Yeah.

22:01.150 --> 22:02.582
What would be different?

22:02.776 --> 22:05.054
Sometimes that's a little easier to think of

22:05.092 --> 22:07.214
because as I said, sometimes if people are

22:07.252 --> 22:08.858
sad, they're feeling not much energy.

22:08.944 --> 22:11.800
So rather than even saying, oh, what would it take?

22:12.190 --> 22:14.846
How would I know I was there, what would I be doing?

22:15.028 --> 22:18.520
And sometimes if they think about what they were doing,

22:19.270 --> 22:23.054
that was someone I know, someone I was talking to

22:23.092 --> 22:25.898
just recently, and he said, well, I would leave the

22:25.924 --> 22:30.110
house, and what would you be doing outside the house?

22:30.220 --> 22:32.354
And he came up with some things already.

22:32.452 --> 22:35.478
He identified then that leaving

22:35.514 --> 22:36.880
the house made a difference.

22:37.690 --> 22:40.866
And as many details of how you would discover

22:40.938 --> 22:43.202
you were even a little bit higher, it's good.

22:43.276 --> 22:46.542
It's also really good to just appreciate anything you're

22:46.566 --> 22:49.434
doing that has gotten you that you survived.

22:49.602 --> 22:52.118
And you're at this point where you know

22:52.144 --> 22:53.498
you want to make it feel better.

22:53.584 --> 22:55.382
And wherever you are, whatever it

22:55.396 --> 22:56.860
would be important to continue.

22:57.610 --> 23:02.738
People sometimes are very modest about the things that

23:02.764 --> 23:06.830
they have already done that are helpful, sometimes even

23:06.880 --> 23:10.202
just remembering to get out of bed, making yourself

23:10.276 --> 23:13.046
get out of bed, doing those daily care things.

23:13.168 --> 23:15.014
People take those for granted sometimes.

23:15.112 --> 23:16.682
Other times they really appreciate them.

23:16.696 --> 23:20.882
But either way, they're good things. Yeah.

23:21.076 --> 23:25.238
By asking this type of scaling question, you

23:25.264 --> 23:28.994
can help someone you love to see.

23:29.092 --> 23:30.398
It's something like seeing the

23:30.424 --> 23:32.030
Gray between black and white.

23:32.140 --> 23:33.122
I think so.

23:33.256 --> 23:37.538
I also know that when we ask questions about how would

23:37.564 --> 23:40.778
you discover that you were just feeling just a little bit

23:40.804 --> 23:44.162
better or a point higher, or what would it take?

23:44.236 --> 23:45.374
Either of those questions?

23:45.532 --> 23:48.014
It engages the evaluative part of our

23:48.052 --> 23:51.770
brain, and that tends, in my experience,

23:51.940 --> 23:54.374
to counterbalance some of the pain.

23:54.532 --> 23:58.274
It gives us a little bit of

23:58.312 --> 24:00.542
relief just by thinking about it.

24:00.616 --> 24:03.122
You mean that it's activating another part of

24:03.136 --> 24:05.210
the brain and the pain center or something.

24:05.380 --> 24:08.058
And Paul, you could probably speak more cogently

24:08.094 --> 24:10.130
about that because you are a doctor.

24:10.630 --> 24:12.362
I see it over and over again.

24:12.436 --> 24:14.942
I see people's faces get a

24:14.956 --> 24:17.918
little brighter, just a little bit.

24:17.944 --> 24:19.120
You know what I mean? Yeah.

24:20.950 --> 24:22.622
Even a micro sicken to see

24:22.636 --> 24:25.660
the sparkle, something like that. Yeah.

24:26.110 --> 24:32.402
I also like to ask who do they know who would

24:32.476 --> 24:36.614
be happy or happy to see that they have moved up

24:36.652 --> 24:40.118
a little bit on the scale, whom they know around them?

24:40.144 --> 24:40.586
Yeah.

24:40.708 --> 24:45.134
Because often you can ask them, well, how would

24:45.172 --> 24:47.702
that person, what would they see you doing that

24:47.716 --> 24:50.210
would tell them you were doing a little better.

24:50.380 --> 24:53.138
And I know that we say all the

24:53.164 --> 24:55.986
time in our society, oh, don't pretend.

24:56.178 --> 25:00.002
But sometimes taking oneself by the hand

25:00.076 --> 25:02.150
and just pretending to be a point

25:02.200 --> 25:06.290
higher can strangely help us feel better.

25:06.340 --> 25:08.966
I remember when I was in high school,

25:09.028 --> 25:10.910
I was a very shy little girl.

25:10.960 --> 25:12.374
You would not guess it now.

25:12.532 --> 25:14.870
And I had a friend who was a cheerleader.

25:15.430 --> 25:19.994
And my friend confided to me that when

25:20.032 --> 25:23.198
she was feeling depressed, sometimes it helped if

25:23.224 --> 25:25.682
she just had to make an effort because

25:25.696 --> 25:27.854
she was a cheerleader for the football team.

25:27.952 --> 25:29.738
She noticed that if she went out and

25:29.764 --> 25:32.942
did that afterwards, she strangely felt better.

25:33.136 --> 25:35.618
And she said, It seems really strange to

25:35.644 --> 25:37.638
be cheering when I don't feel like cheering.

25:37.734 --> 25:39.098
I have to, though, because it's part

25:39.124 --> 25:40.802
of my role in the school.

25:40.936 --> 25:43.490
But I got fascinated back then and I thought,

25:43.540 --> 25:45.722
well, I don't feel like going for a walk,

25:45.796 --> 25:48.640
but my dog really would like a walk.

25:48.970 --> 25:52.322
And strangely enough, I always felt better when I took

25:52.336 --> 25:54.698
my dog for a walk and I was pretending to

25:54.724 --> 25:56.666
feel good enough to take him for a walk.

25:56.848 --> 26:00.594
And so maybe a little bit of gentle pretending.

26:00.642 --> 26:03.654
That doesn't mean not acknowledging that you hurt,

26:03.762 --> 26:06.794
but it means looking for a different part

26:06.832 --> 26:08.718
of the brain to comfort oneself.

26:08.814 --> 26:12.078
So it's different than faking something pretending.

26:12.114 --> 26:14.406
It's like it's deliberate.

26:14.538 --> 26:15.546
It's a free choice.

26:15.618 --> 26:18.042
It's a deliberate free choice, and it's still authentic,

26:18.126 --> 26:23.354
and it's for the purpose of making things better. Okay.

26:23.512 --> 26:27.170
So it's not to manipulate anybody, but to help oneself.

26:27.490 --> 26:29.658
And it's because you make a deliberate,

26:29.694 --> 26:32.582
positive choice to work for the better

26:32.656 --> 26:34.960
either for yourself or for someone else.

26:35.590 --> 26:38.222
That makes the difference between because sometimes

26:38.296 --> 26:40.670
people would say, yeah, but that's fake.

26:41.410 --> 26:44.630
I'm already pretending all the time to be happy.

26:44.800 --> 26:48.878
But it's not that type of faking to be

26:48.904 --> 26:53.658
happy that you mean, can I use this metaphor?

26:53.694 --> 26:58.386
Once I was having a client who was an actor,

26:58.518 --> 27:00.700
and he was one of the best of our country.

27:01.150 --> 27:06.662
And when his spouse came in my office, he

27:06.676 --> 27:09.890
said, you know, when he's acting and he's doing

27:10.000 --> 27:13.502
a role and with a lot of success, even

27:13.576 --> 27:17.018
months after he was playing that character, I can

27:17.044 --> 27:19.550
see that character and the behaviors in the house.

27:19.720 --> 27:22.206
And she said, that's how I know my husband

27:22.278 --> 27:25.998
is a good actor, because he acts so congruently

27:26.034 --> 27:31.130
that he's fully the person that he is acting.

27:31.570 --> 27:34.178
And so that makes me think that pretending would be

27:34.204 --> 27:40.074
like a good actor who is really fully into the

27:40.112 --> 27:45.918
role of that what is acting, making a deliberate, honest

27:46.004 --> 27:49.266
choice and effort, just as you say.

27:49.388 --> 27:51.622
I think that is a very good description.

27:51.766 --> 27:54.798
And the reason I think it's important is it

27:54.824 --> 27:57.858
is something that we can actually choose to do

27:58.004 --> 28:01.494
as opposed to persuading and hoping that things get

28:01.532 --> 28:04.938
better, which can be very painful I think the

28:04.964 --> 28:10.014
fact that we're doing something can in some ways

28:10.112 --> 28:13.038
already bring a little bit of comfort. Yeah.

28:13.064 --> 28:15.294
It's like you feel you do something for you.

28:15.452 --> 28:17.142
And is that something you can do as

28:17.156 --> 28:21.774
well for yourself as with someone beloved one?

28:21.932 --> 28:24.942
Because I imagine that if I would do that to someone

28:25.016 --> 28:28.038
I like and not in the role of therapist, but as

28:28.064 --> 28:30.282
a friend, that I would say, hey, what do you get?

28:30.356 --> 28:31.520
I'm not a number.

28:32.870 --> 28:36.690
I'm no numbers, but it seems to work. Yes.

28:36.740 --> 28:40.098
I think it can be used really nicely as

28:40.124 --> 28:45.450
a self help tool for emotional self regulation.

28:47.330 --> 28:49.662
You can choose to use it as a

28:49.676 --> 28:51.922
way to make life a little easier.

28:52.066 --> 28:56.202
The idea is that ten is when you are

28:56.276 --> 28:59.526
completely content and happy, as you can imagine, being

28:59.708 --> 29:03.522
zero is before you even began to imagine this.

29:03.596 --> 29:04.690
Just the opposite.

29:04.810 --> 29:06.020
Where are you now?

29:06.470 --> 29:09.718
And it just even asking oneself, it begins

29:09.754 --> 29:11.898
to change the neurology a little bit. Yeah.

29:11.924 --> 29:13.026
You're shooting. Yes.

29:13.088 --> 29:16.770
And then coming up with the next small step, that

29:16.820 --> 29:21.286
something that would tell you better also has that impact.

29:21.358 --> 29:23.550
So even thinking about it helps.

29:23.870 --> 29:27.046
So even if you even don't have the courage

29:27.118 --> 29:31.554
to do something proactively with it, just thinking is

29:31.592 --> 29:35.082
already a therapeutic or useful step forward.

29:35.216 --> 29:36.990
That's been my observation over

29:37.040 --> 29:38.730
and over again with people.

29:38.900 --> 29:42.322
And it's a very nice activity

29:42.406 --> 29:44.050
because you can do it silently.

29:44.110 --> 29:45.630
No one knows you're doing. Yes.

29:45.680 --> 29:46.678
That's an advantage.

29:46.774 --> 29:49.770
And it also helps people, I think, think

29:49.820 --> 29:53.814
more clearly because sometimes when painful experiences or

29:53.852 --> 29:57.378
memories come up, it's harder to think clearly. Yeah.

29:57.404 --> 29:59.862
Just like closing your mind.

29:59.996 --> 30:03.370
And this causes us, I think, to shift

30:03.490 --> 30:06.330
just a little bit and to help us

30:06.380 --> 30:10.890
think with another part of the brain, literally.

30:11.690 --> 30:15.898
So I offer it it is my own favorite selfregulation

30:15.994 --> 30:18.594
tool, because when things do you use it for yourself?

30:18.632 --> 30:19.014
Oh, sure.

30:19.052 --> 30:22.458
When I'm very exhausted, I'm 63 years old.

30:22.484 --> 30:24.450
And so sometimes I get very, very tired.

30:24.890 --> 30:26.334
But that's physical. Oh, sure.

30:26.372 --> 30:29.000
But when you're physically tired, sometimes

30:30.770 --> 30:34.114
problems seem bigger than I do. When you're not tired.

30:34.222 --> 30:35.730
And I'm trying to think, OK,

30:35.780 --> 30:37.350
what would be helpful here?

30:37.520 --> 30:41.874
If I put it on a scale almost

30:41.972 --> 30:46.474
immediately, I feel a little bit less overwhelmed.

30:46.522 --> 30:48.798
And I hear that from other people all the time.

30:48.944 --> 30:52.410
So I really encourage people to try using

30:52.460 --> 30:55.234
the scale as a self help technique.

30:55.282 --> 30:57.474
Then they don't even have to tell anybody about it.

30:57.572 --> 30:59.890
Even you use it on micromoments.

31:00.010 --> 31:01.186
On micromoments.

31:01.258 --> 31:02.670
How do I feel right now?

31:02.780 --> 31:07.098
If ten was fabulous and zero was, I

31:07.124 --> 31:09.090
wouldn't even be bothering to think about it.

31:09.140 --> 31:09.906
Where am I now?

31:09.968 --> 31:11.962
And what's helping?

31:12.046 --> 31:14.082
What might make it a little better?

31:14.276 --> 31:19.918
And a friend of mine lost a loved

31:19.954 --> 31:25.062
one, and he told me he used it.

31:25.196 --> 31:32.034
And a young person I know, just 24 years old, she

31:32.132 --> 31:36.954
and her boyfriend broke up the first big romance in her

31:36.992 --> 31:38.886
life, and it had gone on for two years.

31:39.008 --> 31:41.206
It's unbelievably terrible.

31:41.278 --> 31:45.886
And she said that scaling every day she would scale

31:45.958 --> 31:50.466
because it would help give her an idea of one

31:50.528 --> 31:53.322
little thing, even with little that she could do to

31:53.336 --> 31:55.170
make herself feel a little bit better.

31:55.220 --> 31:56.898
And she said the little things often were

31:56.924 --> 31:59.310
more helpful because they weren't so intimidating.

32:01.190 --> 32:04.482
She said, well, maybe if I can play a

32:04.496 --> 32:09.020
computer game for a minute, or maybe if I

32:09.950 --> 32:12.190
went and got an ice cream cone.

32:12.370 --> 32:15.010
These were not rocket science.

32:15.070 --> 32:16.878
These were not these huge things.

32:17.024 --> 32:18.942
But that was exactly why she said

32:19.016 --> 32:21.154
they were helpful, because they were accessible.

32:21.322 --> 32:23.754
And sometimes when she couldn't think of any, she'd say,

32:23.792 --> 32:26.646
okay, well, when did I feel even a little better?

32:26.708 --> 32:28.906
When were things even a little more bearable?

32:29.098 --> 32:31.938
And she could think of them.

32:31.964 --> 32:36.522
Then, of course, eventually she decided that one of

32:36.536 --> 32:38.598
the things that might make her feel better would

32:38.624 --> 32:42.080
be to accept a date with somebody else.

32:45.090 --> 32:46.680
I think she's on the road.

32:48.630 --> 32:50.700
That's wonderful. Yeah.

32:51.150 --> 32:53.734
So it sounds like you are opening a

32:53.772 --> 32:56.522
dialogue with yourself, a kind of positive dialogue.

32:56.546 --> 32:57.120
Right.

32:57.510 --> 32:59.710
What's different than what you hear sometimes about

32:59.760 --> 33:03.622
positive thinking where people feel like I have

33:03.636 --> 33:05.918
to force myself to think positively.

33:05.954 --> 33:08.302
But this is more like a dialogue where

33:08.316 --> 33:11.938
you invite yourself to think about small steps. Yes.

33:11.964 --> 33:14.434
And it's a deliberate choice to think about them.

33:14.532 --> 33:18.238
As you said, it's a positive choice, which I think

33:18.264 --> 33:20.086
is a very good way to look at it.

33:20.148 --> 33:24.838
And also, if you're trying to help somebody and you

33:24.864 --> 33:27.578
want to teach them scaling, first of all, I'd hesitate.

33:27.614 --> 33:31.078
But then I'd say, would it be okay if

33:31.104 --> 33:35.820
I showed you something that maybe would help?

33:37.470 --> 33:41.158
Or I heard about this and I would

33:41.184 --> 33:42.802
suggest if someone's going to offer it to

33:42.816 --> 33:45.646
a friend, they try it themselves first. Yeah.

33:45.708 --> 33:48.370
So that you know how it feels.

33:49.170 --> 33:54.370
What's nice about it is it's not just wanting to feel

33:54.420 --> 33:58.318
better, but it's kind of making a bridge between how you

33:58.344 --> 34:02.902
feel now and better because you make a little line and

34:02.916 --> 34:04.750
the line is almost in a sense of road.

34:04.800 --> 34:08.614
Just like when you are driving down the highway and

34:08.652 --> 34:12.034
you see an arrow and it says if you stay

34:12.072 --> 34:15.250
on this highway, you'll get to whatever the town is.

34:15.360 --> 34:17.641
When you do it this way, it sends

34:17.666 --> 34:20.866
you the message, yes, I will get there. I'm on the road.

34:20.928 --> 34:23.558
There's a road map or beginning of a road map.

34:23.594 --> 34:25.570
That's also the comfort of knowing you're going

34:25.620 --> 34:27.960
in the direction you want to go in.

34:29.370 --> 34:30.094
Okay. Yeah.

34:30.132 --> 34:33.717
Because by answering where is your ten?

34:33.864 --> 34:36.393
You are indicating where your

34:36.431 --> 34:37.980
desired life is, of course.

34:38.489 --> 34:41.040
And that implies that there is a desired life.

34:41.850 --> 34:44.482
And if that's too much for someone to think about sometimes,

34:44.556 --> 34:47.040
just how would I know that I was feeling better?

34:47.429 --> 34:49.114
What would I be doing that

34:49.152 --> 34:50.929
also puts you in that direction.

34:50.989 --> 34:52.306
So that would be the very

34:52.368 --> 34:53.998
smallest version that works too.

34:54.083 --> 34:56.626
How would I know that I'm feeling better? Yeah.

34:56.748 --> 34:59.686
Can like a deeply depressed person

34:59.808 --> 35:01.234
answer that type of question?

35:01.332 --> 35:05.050
Because it might be sometimes it's very hard so sometimes

35:05.160 --> 35:09.850
it's easier to ask yourself what would give someone else

35:09.900 --> 35:13.200
who knows me the idea that I was feeling better?

35:14.070 --> 35:17.782
My mom, my best friend, even my dog?

35:17.856 --> 35:19.150
I know dogs can't talk.

35:19.200 --> 35:21.670
Cats can't talk, but they can be so comfortable.

35:22.170 --> 35:24.202
What would give my cat or dog

35:24.276 --> 35:26.950
the idea that I was feeling better?

35:27.060 --> 35:30.466
And often that is another hint at something.

35:30.648 --> 35:33.574
Even a small thing would be the smallest sign.

35:33.612 --> 35:36.382
The first sign, the smaller the better

35:36.456 --> 35:39.070
because you can do them pretty easily. Yeah.

35:39.120 --> 35:41.462
And you don't lose courage because it's

35:41.486 --> 35:43.498
doable and you're already thinking about it

35:43.524 --> 35:46.246
so that you've already taken a step. Wow.

35:46.308 --> 35:47.220
That's great.

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I think we shared a lot with the people watching

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the interview, so I'm very grateful to you I'm grateful

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to all the inspiration you gave me also when I

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was developing the program, there's a lot of your ideas

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that are intermingled in the way of thinking, so you

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help more people than you even know with your work.

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Thank you for that, Paul.

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And I want you to know I deeply respect your work.